marks2065 0 #101 May 17, 2012 Quote>the state is getting a billion dollar investment into itself fo only 1/3 of the >total. this is a win for the state and the people of Minnesota. It might well be. Socialism is often a win/win proposition. this is not socialism, this is the state paying for a small part in the venture that is used by the state for state purposes. socialism would be the state paying for the entire stadium and running the team. big difference. the state and city have things they will use this facility for that are government related. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,073 #102 May 17, 2012 >this is not socialism, this is the state paying . . . . Love that line. "It's not socialism, it's just the state paying to develop stuff that someone wants!" I'll remember that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #103 May 17, 2012 Quote Quote It's not an either or. Road maintenance is a necessary and core expense. A stadium is not. Stadium is already there. Are you advocating that municipalities do not maintain and improve buildings and structures they own? Quote Additionally, some of the jobs created by the stadium may not produce any tax revenue as they may use illegal labor: construction, maintenance, concessions, security, etc. You are starting to grasp at straws. If the stadium is already there what is the roughly $500 million being spent on in this case? As for the loss in tax revenue from illegal labor, they will get 0 income tax if the workers are paid in cash. Sure, go ahead and factor in their other taxes but it's not likely to make much difference either way towards justifying $500 million. Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #104 May 17, 2012 Quote If the stadium is already there what is the roughly $500 million being spent on in this case? Rebuilding it, things age. The main tenant's lease is up. Quote As for the loss in tax revenue from illegal labor, they will get 0 income tax if the workers are paid in cash. Sure, go ahead and factor in their other taxes but it's not likely to make much difference either way towards justifying $500 million. It's an issue on any construction job and not specific to this or stadiums. That's why bringing it up is grasping at straws. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #105 May 17, 2012 Quote>this is not socialism, this is the state paying . . . . Love that line. "It's not socialism, it's just the state paying to develop stuff that someone wants!" I'll remember that. You really like to spin everything don't you. If the state has events (Like high school football, baseball and soccer) they should be paying for that. Many things that the state would sponser would be held there. the team is binging in millions of dollars in tax revenue that will help the state. the states have the right to do things the fed should never get involved in, that is how this country was formed. The state would be seriously hurt if the team moved away, they are investing in the future of the state. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #106 May 17, 2012 Quote HOWEVER, cities, and other jurisdictions, SHOULD work to lure and keep businesses in their areas, using all legal means available, such as land, tax breaks, etc. .... Do cities need sports teams? Sure. But at what costs and benefit? Government officials are horrendous at doing the dollars and cents math on projects. Just my 2 cents worth... Agree with all. Only would add that any deals made have to pay for themselves immediately, not deferred. Seen too many times a company move in for tax breaks and around the time they expire threaten to leave unless given an extension or in some cases additional items.Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #107 May 17, 2012 QuoteQuote>this is not socialism, this is the state paying . . . . Love that line. "It's not socialism, it's just the state paying to develop stuff that someone wants!" I'll remember that. You really like to spin everything don't you. If the state has events (Like high school football, baseball and soccer) they should be paying for that. Many things that the state would sponser would be held there. the team is binging in millions of dollars in tax revenue that will help the state. the states have the right to do things the fed should never get involved in, that is how this country was formed. The state would be seriously hurt if the team moved away, they are investing in the future of the state. The federal government isn't the only ones in huge debt from bad deals, many states and localities are too.Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #108 May 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuote>this is not socialism, this is the state paying . . . . Love that line. "It's not socialism, it's just the state paying to develop stuff that someone wants!" I'll remember that. You really like to spin everything don't you. If the state has events (Like high school football, baseball and soccer) they should be paying for that. Many things that the state would sponser would be held there. the team is binging in millions of dollars in tax revenue that will help the state. the states have the right to do things the fed should never get involved in, that is how this country was formed. The state would be seriously hurt if the team moved away, they are investing in the future of the state. The federal government isn't the only ones in huge debt from bad deals, many states and localities are too. the fed would not have bad deal debt if they would stop doing things that they are not supposed to be doing. protecting our country and following the constitution does not give them the right to waste our money on companies like solyndra. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #109 May 17, 2012 QuoteYou really like to spin everything don't you. If the state has events (Like high school football, baseball and soccer) they should be paying for that. Many things that the state would sponser would be held there. the team is binging in millions of dollars in tax revenue that will help the state. the states have the right to do things the fed should never get involved in, that is how this country was formed. The state would be seriously hurt if the team moved away, they are investing in the future of the state. The old stadium is perfectly adequate for every single one of those events."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #110 May 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteYou really like to spin everything don't you. If the state has events (Like high school football, baseball and soccer) they should be paying for that. Many things that the state would sponser would be held there. the team is binging in millions of dollars in tax revenue that will help the state. the states have the right to do things the fed should never get involved in, that is how this country was formed. The state would be seriously hurt if the team moved away, they are investing in the future of the state. The old stadium is perfectly adequate for every single one of those events. but once the team leaves they loose tax revenue, jobs, and money for stadium upkeep now making it a large cost to the state Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #111 May 17, 2012 Quote City leaders rarely make prudent business decisions. thanks for inserting many more real world examples. The "Socialists" would prefer to argue with imaginary numbers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #112 May 17, 2012 QuoteQuote City leaders rarely make prudent business decisions. thanks for inserting many more real world examples. The "Socialists" would prefer to argue with imaginary numbers. Because running a city is not the same as running a business. What is the financial return on a library. Or a pool? What about infrastructure? What is the ROI on a road, or a bridge? What is the ROI on a school? I don't think you would like it if cities, states and countries were run as a business. You too are a "Socialist", you just have a different list you are holding your hand out for. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grimmie 186 #113 May 17, 2012 http://articles.latimes.com/1998/mar/18/business/fi-30016 Here is a deal that went bad to the tune of nearly $7 million for the county. Trying to go into business is not a strong suit of politicians. One of the BIGGEST financial boondoggles ever in America is turning out to be the El Toro "Great Park" in Irvine, CA. When the El Toro MCAS was closed, it was supposed to be turned into a major airport. The NIMBY crowd hired consultants to stop it. The county hired consultants to start it. The LAWYERS all made milions of $$$. Now it sits under Irvine's control. It will cost billions of dollars to ever get anything done on the site. $240 million slated for the park is gone, vanished. All taxpayer moneys. In the meantime, Irvine's school district has been struggling for money. Google around and read the El Toro story. It will become the biggest local taxpayer boondoggle in history. So the next time someone says the city employees are breaking a cities budget, really look into the facts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #114 May 17, 2012 Quote When the El Toro MCAS was closed, it was supposed to be turned into a major airport. Sure was. and OC needs that airport capacity. The neighborhood shouldn't have been allowed to get their way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #115 May 17, 2012 Quote What is the financial return on a library. Or a pool? What about infrastructure? What is the ROI on a road, or a bridge? What is the ROI on a school? Just a hint, since my comment didn't register. Real numbers are the key. And you bounce between ROI not mattering, and unfounded insistence that this stadium project will have a positive one. (I know it will be for the owners, doubt it for the city/state). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #116 May 17, 2012 QuoteJust a hint, since my comment didn't register. Real numbers are the key. If that is teh case, then provide me what the ROI is on investing in a library or a school. QuoteAnd you bounce between ROI not mattering, and unfounded insistence that this stadium project will have a positive one. Find me a post where I said this project will have a positive ROI. Quite clearly have stated there is more at play than just a pure financial ROI calculation. Lets say building a Library is a 25 Million dollar investment, with an ongoing maintenance budget of $1,000,000 annualy. I'll look forward to your ROI calculation. Since without a positive ROI, there should be no investment in a library. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,073 #117 May 17, 2012 >If the state has events (Like high school football, baseball and soccer) >they should be paying for that. Many things that the state would sponser >would be held there. Yep. And if the state has services (like power, highways, trains etc) they should be paying for that. Many things the state would sponsor would use those things. >the team is binging in millions of dollars in tax revenue that will help the state. Also agreed. And green energy is bringing in millions of dollars (and thousands of jobs) that will help the state's bottom line - and their populations. Like I said, yes - all the above are socialistic approaches to the economy. Some even work. And there's nothing wrong with that as long as you are intelligent about it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #118 May 17, 2012 Quote as long as you are intelligent about it. ahhh HA! now we see where it all breaks down it took long enough to get there....... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,073 #119 May 17, 2012 >now we see where it all breaks down Yep. And the definition of "intelligent" is very different between, say, an environmentalist and a sports fan. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #120 May 17, 2012 Quote>now we see where it all breaks down Yep. And the definition of "intelligent" is very different between, say, an environmentalist and a sports fan. you'd think so, but not really - 'the fiscal intelligence level' is about the same for both However, I don't think I've ever seen a 'return to the mother' advocate put on a viking cap and paint his face just to rally around an effort to keep Mr. and Mrs. Johnson from extending their deck two feet into the marshes...... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #121 May 17, 2012 Quote Find me a post where I said this project will have a positive ROI. Quite clearly have stated there is more at play than just a pure financial ROI calculation. you made numerous references to tax receipts and jobs. Why mention them if the cost is greater than the gain in any measurable timeframe? tell you what - figure out what is it that you actually believe and get back to us. me- I believe this is a half billion dollar gift to rich people who own an NFL team. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #122 May 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteJust a hint, since my comment didn't register. Real numbers are the key. If that is teh case, then provide me what the ROI is on investing in a library or a school. QuoteAnd you bounce between ROI not mattering, and unfounded insistence that this stadium project will have a positive one. Find me a post where I said this project will have a positive ROI. Quite clearly have stated there is more at play than just a pure financial ROI calculation. Lets say building a Library is a 25 Million dollar investment, with an ongoing maintenance budget of $1,000,000 annualy. I'll look forward to your ROI calculation. Since without a positive ROI, there should be no investment in a library. Apples and oranges. The library is not going to greatly enrich a small number of already very wealthy individuals. This scheme, just like Arlington, TX, and just like Soldier Field and US Cellular in Chicago, is just about a bunch of wealthy guys extracting a lot of $$$ from taxpayers.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #123 May 17, 2012 Quotetell you what - figure out what is it that you actually believe and get back to us. it is stated a couple of times. It is fine for you to disagree with me, but if you are truly unable to comprehend what I am saying, I suggest a return to high school. Quoteyou made numerous references to tax receipts and jobs. Why mention them if the cost is greater than the gain in any measurable timeframe? Because it is among the benefits, not the sole benefits. Again, if you cannot understand that, I suggest you return to high school. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #124 May 17, 2012 QuoteApples and oranges. The library is not going to greatly enrich a small number of already very wealthy individuals. Quite a few very rich authors and publishing houses. The stadium is also not going to greatly enrich a small number of already wealthy people. They would just go somewhere else. Playing in Minnesota isn't going to make them richer than playing in LA. QuoteThis scheme, just like Arlington, TX, and just like Soldier Field and US Cellular in Chicago, is just about a bunch of wealthy guys extracting a lot of $$$ from taxpayers. Which off course is no different than any other company looking for subsidies etc. In the end, these rich people would have gone to LA to be very rich over there. Minnesota decided that there is a benefit to an NFL team and a world class stadium in their community. Will the investment be profitable on a purely financial level? Probably not, but that simply is not the only driving force in these decisions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #125 May 17, 2012 Quote Quoteyou made numerous references to tax receipts and jobs. Why mention them if the cost is greater than the gain in any measurable timeframe? Because it is among the benefits, not the sole benefits. Again, if you cannot understand that, I suggest you return to high school. high school does a terrible job teaching finance or business. So let me repeat the lesson for you - collecting $1M per year in revenue is not a benefit of a 500M spend. The math has been done - stadiums and pro teams don't pay off, don't warrant these sorts of spending. You've provided nothing to contradict this. 500M in libraries would provide a much greater value to the community. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
