Most Christians accept evolution

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He started as a believer, I think. No full circle here, just what he thinks of as progression.

Many intelligent people who were raised by intolerant religious types seem to turn far more forcefully against religion than those who are either not as smart, or who don't have it used as a club in their upbringing.

A club is a rotten tool to use on a kid, whether it's physical, emotional or religious.

Wendy P.

Please note that "intolerant" is the key word here.
Intolerance breeds rejection in all walks of life, I would think. Just as the non-believers are demonstrating their severe intolerance of others, so comes the rejection of their POV...regardless of religious beliefs.

Consider other examples of intolerance and you will understand what I'm trying to say......

- We generally reject racial intolerance. Why would we accept it in the religious arena...or any arena for that matter?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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Nope...but I do think he should read the whole thread before he asks me about things I've already covered.

Now, this is an interesting statement given the thorough repetition of the non-believers adamant preaching on the "no proof" stance.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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Many intelligent people who were raised by intolerant religious types seem to turn far more forcefully against religion

Projecting one's negative experience of religion onto everyone else is far from intelligent...it's just typical everyday bigoted ignorance.

Bingo!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[wmw999 2,460]

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Just as the non-believers are demonstrating their severe intolerance of others

That's only some of them, Pops. I'll bet that none of the polarizing people in this thread sound like that in person

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[popsjumper 2]

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>I honestly don't know if there is a god or not so I've reset to the default position that
>there is no god, and I reject your claim that there is one.

You've just contradicted yourself. "I don't know the answer, but your answer is wrong!"

Been telling them that since Day 1.


That type of contradiction is all too common. The thread is rife with it....just as nearly ALL the religion threads are.

I defer to you on that rebuttal. You put it in simple, easy to understand language that doesn't tweak their nose.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Marinus 0]

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Just as the non-believers are demonstrating their severe intolerance of others

Nice generalization there, pops. Funny thing is that you object to such generalizations if you're on the receiving end of it. Besides toleration doesn't imply at all that you agree with whatever you tolerate. Personally I don't tolerate any form of religious encroaching on my life, but that's about it.

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We generally reject racial intolerance. Why would we accept it in the religious arena...or any arena for that matter?

That's beyond me, but still society is more tolerant of religious bigotry.

[Marinus 0]

Except of course it isn't a contradiction.

"I don't know what your natural hair colour is, but I know it isn't green like you say"

Without knowing what the answer is, one can still identify a wrong answer. In case of God we're actually not even know what we're looking for, of course, so in a way, you're right, but probably not in the way you prefer.

[rehmwa 2]

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I'm actually an agnostic atheist. I don't know if god exists, and therefore I do not accept that god exists.

That combo is self contradictory.

Atheist states a conclusive "belief" (they hate it when it's phrased that way)
Agnostic states either conclusive belief is not possible (and doesn't likely matter)

Frankly, I lean that way, but I just refuse to accept the conclusive term because of the rude fanatics that have hijacked it

I think you really just have a big issue with organized religion and have transferred those issues onto individuals of faith rather than the large scale orgs you resent -

Frankly, I don't see a real personal belief system from you - faithful, agnostic, or atheist - that appears independent of your angst about big religion. That's pretty common

But I suspect it's just your delivery here. Likely, in person, your agnosticism or atheism would be readily apparent

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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>I don't reject a person's claim that they choose to 'believe' one way or another

I feel a similar way, which is why I both disagree with del's statement and think he is contradicting himself by saying "I don't know the answer but I know you are wrong."

My take on it is "I don't know the answer, but I reject your claim that you absolutely know it either". I don't have an issue with that.

Atheists and Faithful should be schooled that they are taking a position, not leveraging fact where none exists. It's not a matter of whether either group is right, it is whether they can allow the other side to live alone. The problem with the more fanatical atheists, is that they want to shut down the structure of faith - instead of addressing the individual crimes of the members and instead attribute those to the structure. The converse if true in many instances always. This is the failure of being way too socialist in culture - individuals stop being held accountable and excuses are made to apply to power structures instead of where real responsibility lands. Highly organized religion is a perfect example of what happens if we go too far left. That's why the extremes of both political parties act so similar and achieve the same results - it's the same mind set.

In a nation of individuals, group think sucks. But it's the lazy way and easy way.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[JackC1 0]

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I'm actually an agnostic atheist. I don't know if god exists, and therefore I do not accept that god exists.

That combo is self contradictory.

Atheist states a conclusive "belief" (they hate it when it's phrased that way)
Agnostic states either conclusive belief is not possible (and doesn't likely matter)

Rubbish. An atheist lacks a belief in god, that's all (a=without; theist=god). An agnostic isn't sure either way. So you can have agnostic atheists (doesn't know but doesn't believe either), agnostic theists (doesn't know but believes anyway), even atheist christians (doesn't believe god is real but thinks Jesus' teachings are worth following) all without contradiction.

Personally, I find god a meaningless concept which puts me in the atheist camp since I don't place any faith in meaningless concepts.

[Marinus 0]

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Atheist states a conclusive "belief" (they hate it when it's phrased that way)

The argument that atheism is also a belief is usually an attempt from the religious to pull atheists down from their usually very strong logical position, down to the usually very weak faith-based position of the believers.

An atheist can state that he has absolutely no reason to assume the hypothesis "There is a God" is true without becoming an agnostic or expressing a belief.

[rehmwa 2]

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Rubbish. An atheist lacks a belief in god, that's all (a=without; theist=god). An agnostic isn't sure either way. So you can have agnostic atheists (doesn't know but doesn't believe either), agnostic theists (doesn't know but believes anyway), even atheist christians (doesn't believe god is real but thinks Jesus' teachings are worth following) all without contradiction.

rubbish - the EVERYONE with a position is either an agnostic theist, or an agnostic atheist - since, by definition it can't be proven either way. So tagging "agnostic" onto the beginning is pointless or ludicrously redundant.

heck - you even include the word "believe" in both your examples....we're parsing words - I note that an absolute position just means someone made a choice in what to believe. So we're not in disagreement here even if you don't like how I worded it

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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Atheist states a conclusive "belief" (they hate it when it's phrased that way)

The argument that atheism is also a belief

really torques off atheists


fixed it for ya - atheists that let this bother them just want the impression that they are passively in their camp, rather than making an active choice. I'd contend that passively in the camp is simply agnosticism

(for me, it just implies they don't understand the argument about belief without proof naturally has three positions, for it, against it, don't care - with the defined criteria that all three don't know)

I'm a fan of don't know, doesn't matter, don't care

The only honest position is agnostic. But, if pretending in absolutes helps people get through their day? they can knock themselves out. All the dialogue past that is just semantics, and I made my offering so I'm done with that part.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,030]

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He started as a believer, I think. No full circle here, just what he thinks of as progression.

Many intelligent people who were raised by intolerant religious types seem to turn far more forcefully against religion than those who are either not as smart, or who don't have it used as a club in their upbringing.

A club is a rotten tool to use on a kid, whether it's physical, emotional or religious.

Wendy P.

Please note that "intolerant" is the key word here.
Intolerance breeds rejection in all walks of life, I would think. Just as the non-believers are demonstrating their severe intolerance of others, so comes the rejection of their POV...regardless of religious beliefs.

Right, Catholic bishops should tolerate the coverage of birth control for their employees,

All Christians should tolerate gay marriage, and not try to get it banned.

All Christians should tolerate abortion on demand, and not try to get it banned.

...

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[JackC1 0]

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rubbish - the EVERYONE with a position is either an agnostic theist, or an agnostic atheist - since, by definition it can't be proven either way. So tagging "agnostic" onto the beginning is pointless or ludicrously redundant.

heck - you even include the word "believe" in both your examples....we're parsing words - I note that an absolute position just means someone made a choice in what to believe. So we're not in disagreement here even if you don't like how I worded it

Before you can even have an idea as to whether the question of god can be answered (let alone what the answer is) you first need to define the question. According to you I'm not an atheist because I don't categorically believe that god doesn't exit (since I don't know what this god is) and I'm not an agnostic because I don't know enough about the question to tell whether it's answerable or not. So what am I?

[rehmwa 2]

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Before you can even have an idea as to whether the question of god can be answered (let alone what the answer is) you first need to define the question. According to you I'm not an atheist because I don't categorically believe that god doesn't exit (since I don't know what this god is) and I'm not an agnostic because I don't know enough about the question to tell whether it's even answerable at all. So what am I?

Just some guy - a guy that likes savings


(I think everybody is agnostic in reality just by how the question is truly defined, then we fool ourselves into other options in whatever way we find best for ourselves. However, I only think that way because I think the actual question is pointless. Other than as a fun debate topic when people are friendly about it)


However, I think that comment

"I'm not an agnostic because I don't know enough about the question to tell whether it's even answerable at all"

has an extraneous "not" in there. I'll go recheck my comment and see if I miswrote something to cause the disconnect.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[JackC1 0]

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I think everybody is agnostic in reality just by how the question is truly defined

That's the problem, the question isn't defined. Agnosticism presupposes that one at least understands the question enough to have a position on whether it can be answered or not.

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However, I think that comment

"I'm not an agnostic because I don't know enough about the question to tell whether it's even answerable at all"

has an extraneous "not" in there. I'll go recheck my comment and see if I miswrote something to cause the disconnect.

No, that's pretty much what I meant. For example, if I asked you do you believe that blarnfargles exist, you probably ask what a blarnfargle is before going any further. Without that crucial definition, the question is meaningless.

[Shotgun 1]

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I'm a fan of don't know, doesn't matter, don't care

So just say this. No need to label yourself in regard to something that you don't care about.

The religious argument gets particularly boring when it turns into a semantics argument about the various labels.

[maadmax 0]

That does not answer his question.
The teachings of Christ are highly debatable. There are four official versions of his story and at least 2 unofficial ones... How do you decide which ones to believe or to follow ?

What exactly is the grace of God ? I've heard that a bunch of times but I simply do not seem to understand the concept....

[rehmwa 2]

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The religious argument gets particularly boring when it turns into a semantics argument about the various labels.

though I personally agree with you, I guess it's what churns it for others

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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No, that's pretty much what I meant./reply]

ok, I get you. I thought the whole "according to you" bit applied to part one and part two. But you only meant it to apply to part 1.

enjoy

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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[popsjumper 2]

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Just as the non-believers are demonstrating their severe intolerance of others

Nice generalization there, pops.

Thanks.

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Besides toleration doesn't imply at all that you agree with whatever you tolerate.

True. Didn't say tolerance = agreement.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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My take on it is.....

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Dang it, rehmwa. This is SC. You're not supposed to post common sense. Get with the program.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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He started as a believer, I think. No full circle here, just what he thinks of as progression.

Many intelligent people who were raised by intolerant religious types seem to turn far more forcefully against religion than those who are either not as smart, or who don't have it used as a club in their upbringing.

A club is a rotten tool to use on a kid, whether it's physical, emotional or religious.

Wendy P.

Please note that "intolerant" is the key word here.
Intolerance breeds rejection in all walks of life, I would think. Just as the non-believers are demonstrating their severe intolerance of others, so comes the rejection of their POV...regardless of religious beliefs.

Right, Catholic bishops should ...

All Christians should....

All Christians should...

...

If you want to go off in that direction. let's have fun with it....

All professors should be tolerate students failing.
Do you do that?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Marinus 0]

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I'm a fan of don't know, doesn't matter, don't care

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So just say this. No need to label yourself in regard to something that you don't care about.

There's a label for that too: it's apatheism.

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The religious argument gets particularly boring when it turns into a semantics argument about the various labels.

Not so much boring: it's just impossible to have a good classification system. Some people think you can divide non-believers in a couple of neat little piles, the endless discussions that are a result of such claims proof otherwise.