beowulf 1 #1001 July 2, 2012 QuoteQuoteThat's nice, but when people make claims that spirituality is a real thing outside their imagination then that's where they need evidence to support their claims. Actually - they don't need to 'provide evidence' (that's a silly way to respond to them, it's non-productive and confrontative), what is needed is a discussion why any "absolute claim" is a non-starter and doesn't even fit the bounds of any discussion on faith or spirituality. Essentially, they are exagerating the verbage in an attempt to show the strength of their personal (and unprovable) belief. That part can be called out - but asking for 'evidence' is just kinda jerky since, by definition, it can't exist. in that, I agree - Winsor stated it pretty nicely and pretty much exactly my position on it. I don't buy that. They make claims and say they have evidence. I am just asking them to produce said evidence. If they don't make the claim then I won't ask for it. Defining that something has no evidence doesn't help the crediblity. It only hurts it. BTW, I am an asshole and I know it. I don't like it when people throw bullshit claims out there as if they are scientific fact. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #1002 July 2, 2012 QuoteI don't buy that. we're not disagreeing, the original error is from that person claiming proof on a subject that's clearly founded, BASED on, a belief that doesn't require proof. (Frankly, if there ever is shown absolute proof in either direction, all organized faith based groups would come crashing down) I'm just saying that, instead of driving down the pointless "gimme proof of the unprovable" route - which is a total waste of time and, IMO, just antagonistic for the sake of being antagonistic - the better gambit is to address their convictions on their personal faith and ask them why they feel the need to claim proof when it should be absolutely unnecessary if their faith is truly as strong as it should be. But that's just me, I couldn't care less about the large organizations, but I'm always interested in more insight of individuals and friends. Those can be interesting discussions with those who are sincere, and an added bonus is it pretty much lets you sort out those others that are shallow in their beliefs and just spewing quotes and crap (those I just ignore as wasting my time and reason). And, frankly, this also works with atheists to figure out who's reasonable and thoughtful vs just the fanatics. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #1003 July 2, 2012 Quote BTW, I am an asshole I find it to be a great part time job, but not so great as a full time vocation.. and in this thread, you're not one at all - good discussion ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #1004 July 2, 2012 Quote Quote Quote The problem is you have no way to confirm that what you believe is real. I base my life on reality that can be confirmed. The problem you have is that you can't except the fact that I don't care what you base you life on or what you think. We are different. Read the Gestalt Prayer by Fritz Perls. That's nice, but when you claim that what you believe is real and true then I will ask for evidence to support your claims. As I have stated many, many times for your benefit, my evidence is personal and I am sharing testimony. So, just to be perfectly clear in the future, any redundant inquiries from you will be not be granted a reply. However, feel free to ask me something else. I may or may not respond.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #1005 July 2, 2012 Quote Quote Quote Quote The problem is you have no way to confirm that what you believe is real. I base my life on reality that can be confirmed. The problem you have is that you can't except the fact that I don't care what you base you life on or what you think. We are different. Read the Gestalt Prayer by Fritz Perls. That's nice, but when you claim that what you believe is real and true then I will ask for evidence to support your claims. As I have stated many, many times for your benefit, my evidence is personal and I am sharing testimony. So, just to be perfectly clear in the future, any redundant inquiries from you will be not be granted a reply. However, feel free to ask me something else. I may or may not respond. Your evidence can not be tested or repeated, because no two people experience anything in the exact same way. So your evidence is useless and doesn't prove anything. All anyone can tell from your testimony is that you are imagining things. And for the record you don't have to respond to any of my posts or even read them if you so choose not to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #1006 July 2, 2012 I don't have an interest in trying to change anyones mind regarding religion. This is just entertainment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #1007 July 2, 2012 Quote I don't have an interest in trying to change anyones mind regarding religion. This is just entertainment. Well, now there's a point on which I agree. Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #1008 July 2, 2012 Quote(Frankly, if there ever is shown absolute proof in either direction, all organized faith based groups would come crashing down) Fortunately for them there is no way to prove something doesn't exist. You can only deduce that something doesn't exist due to a lack of evidence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #1009 July 2, 2012 QuoteThis is just entertainment. at first, eventually, just running in circles get boring ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #1010 July 2, 2012 Quote As I have stated many, many times for your benefit, my evidence is personal and I am sharing testimony. it's in the semantics (sadly) - I take exception to the word 'evidence'. If it was 'belief', or 'faith' or 'anecdotes', then I respect it completely. (i'm probably wrong, but I see 'evidence' and think of it as something open to review and verification - but on a subjective topic, it's not really, it's just stuff you relate to your beliefs - but my vocabulary isn't that extensive) But I know lots of people that tend to treat beliefs and opinion (on lots of subjects, not just religion) as fact. They tend like phrases like " 'nuff said', and 'fact of the matter is', etc etc etc) - so go figure ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #1011 July 2, 2012 QuoteI base my life on reality that can be confirmed. Most everyone does to some extent...I just choose not to go as far as to thwart the human experience by limiting myself to the constraints science can impose. Life is too large to fit under a microscope...we are not 100% logically rational automatons and I see absolutely no reason to live like one...Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #1012 July 2, 2012 You can imagine anything you want. But when you claim something like spirituality as real then you need evidence to back up such a claim. Otherwise it's just a figment of your imagination. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,008 #1013 July 2, 2012 >Otherwise it's just a figment of your imagination. As much as happiness, depression, love, courage etc are "figments of your imagination." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #1014 July 2, 2012 And, you are right on. Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #1015 July 2, 2012 Quotewhen you claim something like spirituality as real then you need evidence to back up such a claim. Data error (cyclic redundancy check) “You unbelieving generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy to me.”Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #1016 July 2, 2012 QuoteQuoteI base my life on reality that can be confirmed. Most everyone does to some extent...I just choose not to go as far as to thwart the human experience by limiting myself to the constraints science can impose. Life is too large to fit under a microscope...we are not 100% logically rational automatons and I see absolutely no reason to live like one... As a coworker of mine once said, "Some people will fight for their limitations."Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #1017 July 2, 2012 Quote>Otherwise it's just a figment of your imagination. As much as happiness, depression, love, courage etc are "figments of your imagination." Is this not the activity of the right hemisphere of the brain?Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #1018 July 2, 2012 Quote>Otherwise it's just a figment of your imagination. As much as happiness, depression, love, courage etc are "figments of your imagination." Flawed logic. What you are describing are emotional states completely internal to the individual. Spirituality implies a spirit. Something separate from the self.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #1019 July 2, 2012 Quote>Otherwise it's just a figment of your imagination. As much as happiness, depression, love, courage etc are "figments of your imagination." Your logic is screwed up. No one has claimed any of what you have listed as existing outside the human mind, unlike spirituality. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #1020 July 2, 2012 QuoteQuote>Otherwise it's just a figment of your imagination. As much as happiness, depression, love, courage etc are "figments of your imagination." Flawed logic. What you are describing are emotional states completely internal to the individual. Spirituality implies a spirit. Something separate from the self. Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Although you place no validation on Scripture, the fact remains that it has been accepted by many down through the ages of time. IMEO: Soul represents the self i.e., mind, emotions and will. Spirit represents the elan vital or essence of life.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #1021 July 2, 2012 QuoteQuotewhen you claim something like spirituality as real then you need evidence to back up such a claim. Data error (cyclic redundancy check) “You unbelieving generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy to me.” You and all Christians have failed to provide credible evidence to support the existence of your god or spiritualism or anything supernatural, therefore I do not believe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #1022 July 2, 2012 QuoteHebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Although you place no validation on Scripture, the fact remains that it has been accepted by many down through the ages of time. IMEO: Soul represents the self i.e., mind, emotions and will. Spirit represents the elan vital or essence of life. That is nothing but a fantasy. Just because lots of people believe doesn't lend it any more credance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #1023 July 2, 2012 The Bible is filled with a lot of fantasy, just like the Illiad and the Odyssey. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #1024 July 2, 2012 QuoteYour logic is screwed up Your logic is screwed up...you're trying to apply it to faith - truly an exercise in vanity. How much life have you wasted on this?Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #1025 July 2, 2012 QuoteYou and all Christians have failed to provide credible evidence to support the existence of your god or spiritualism or anything supernatural, therefore I do not believe. I must ask...do you have the ability to recognize the utter stupidity of this statement?Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
