Most Christians accept evolution

[beowulf 1]

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But asking for an explanation, getting it, then saying "I'm still waiting for an explanation" is dishonest.

This intellectual dishonesty is common with Creationists.

[RonD1120 62]

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I'm sorry, but where in that are these words of yours, "The end result is death unless intervened by insanity or jail"?

Where?

Nowhere.

Your argument is that it is not a disease.

I never made such a claim. Go ahead, scroll back and search for what you're claiming I said. Your claims are bullshit.

Your post #1222:

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I'm not saying alcoholism is a good thing, but to say death is the reason it's bad is specious.

http://www.drug-addiction-help-online.com/alcoholism.html

Alcoholism is a disease - a chronic, progressive, fatal disease if not treated.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 62]

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But asking for an explanation, getting it, then saying "I'm still waiting for an explanation" is dishonest.

From the beginning the question was presented to stevebabin. It was always for stevebabin. It is good that you guys have his back. But he always bails out when I come back with something he can't answer.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Marinus 0]

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Seriously: Alcoholism is accepted as an illness over here, Dutch man. And even covered by our lousy HC

Yeah, there's even epidemics called Oktoberfests

On a more serious note. I think any addiction is just bad behaviour that's usually a symptom of an underlying condition, but not a disease in itself.

[quade 4]

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I'm sorry, but where in that are these words of yours, "The end result is death unless intervened by insanity or jail"?

Where?

Nowhere.

Your argument is that it is not a disease.

I never made such a claim. Go ahead, scroll back and search for what you're claiming I said. Your claims are bullshit.

Your post #1222:

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I'm not saying alcoholism is a good thing, but to say death is the reason it's bad is specious.

http://www.drug-addiction-help-online.com/alcoholism.html

Alcoholism is a disease - a chronic, progressive, fatal disease if not treated.

And that is still not the medical definition you claimed it was.
Nor have you shown where I claimed it wasn't a disease as you claimed I did.

2 claims made by you. Both bullshit.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[RonD1120 62]

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I'm sorry, but where in that are these words of yours, "The end result is death unless intervened by insanity or jail"?

Where?

Nowhere.

Your argument is that it is not a disease.

I never made such a claim. Go ahead, scroll back and search for what you're claiming I said. Your claims are bullshit.

Your post #1222:

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I'm not saying alcoholism is a good thing, but to say death is the reason it's bad is specious.

http://www.drug-addiction-help-online.com/alcoholism.html

Alcoholism is a disease - a chronic, progressive, fatal disease if not treated.

And that is still not the medical definition you claimed it was.
Nor have you shown where I claimed it wasn't a disease as you claimed I did.

2 claims made by you. Both bullshit.

You really are not a nice person. I'm OK with that because I don't expect that from you. You will not goad me to profanity on your level.

http://www.step12.com/alcoholics-definition.html

Medical Definition of Alcoholism


.
This comprehensive definition of Alcoholism was published by the Journal of the American Medical Association in 1992. This definition was prepared by the Joint Committee to Study the Definition and Criteria for the Diagnosis of Alcoholism of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence and the American Society of Addiction Medicine.

Approved by the Boards of Directors of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence, Inc. (February 3, 1990) and the American Society of Addiction Medicine (February 25, 1990).

Definition of Alcoholism -- published by the Journal of the American Medical Association

" Alcoholism is a primary, chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. The disease is often progressive and fatal. It is characterized by continuous or periodic: impaired control over drinking, preoccupation with the drug alcohol, use of alcohol despite adverse consequences, and distortions in thinking, most notably denial ."

Primary refers to the nature of alcoholism as a disease entity in addition to and separate from other pathophysiologic states which may be associated with it.

Primary suggests that alcoholism, as an addiction, is not a symptom of an underlying disease state.

Disease means an involuntary disability. It represents the sum of the abnormal phenomena displayed by a group of individuals. These phenomena are associated with a specified common set of characteristics by which these individuals differ from the norm, and which places them at a disadvantage.

Often progressive and fatal means that the disease persists over time and that physical, emotional, and social changes are often cumulative and may progress as drinking continues. Alcoholism causes premature death through overdose, organic complications involving the brain, liver, heart and many other organs, and by contributing to suicide, homicide, motor vehicle crashes, and other traumatic events.

Impaired control means the inability to limit alcohol use or to consistently limit on any drinking occasion the duration of the episode, the quantity consumed, and/or the behavioral consequences of drinking.

Preoccupation in association with alcohol use indicates excessive, focused attention given to the drug alcohol, its effects, and/or its use. The relative value thus assigned to alcohol by the individual often leads to a diversion of energies away from important life concerns.

Adverse consequences are alcohol-related problems or impairments in such areas as: physical health (e.g., alcohol withdrawal syndromes, liver disease, gastritis, anemia, neurological disorders); psychological functioning (e.g., impairments in cognition, changes in mood and behavior); interpersonal functioning (e.g., marital problems and child abuse, impaired social relationships); occupational functioning (e.g., scholastic or job problems); and legal, financial, or spiritual problems.

Denial is used here not only in the psychoanalytic sense of a single psychological defense mechanism disavowing the significance of events, but more broadly to include a range of psychological maneuvers designed to reduce awareness of the fact that alcohol use is the cause of an individual's problems rather than a solution to those problems. Denial becomes an integral part of the disease and a major obstacle to recovery.

--End of definition --

http://www.step12.com/alcoholics-definition.html

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[quade 4]

A medical definition will be found in a medical dictionary.

I challenge you to crack one open rather than continue to cite emotional 12 step beliefs rather than facts.

"The disease is often progressive and fatal" is considerably different than what you claimed.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[beowulf 1]

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But asking for an explanation, getting it, then saying "I'm still waiting for an explanation" is dishonest.

From the beginning the question was presented to stevebabin. It was always for stevebabin. It is good that you guys have his back. But he always bails out when I come back with something he can't answer.

You did receive an answer. Just because it didn't come from stevebabin shouldn't matter. You are just using that as an excuse to ignore the answer you were given.

[RonD1120 62]

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A medical definition will be found in a medical dictionary.

I challenge you to crack one open rather than continue to cite emotional 12 step beliefs rather than facts.

All I have here is Google.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[quade 4]

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A medical definition will be found in a medical dictionary.
I challenge you to crack one open rather than continue to cite emotional 12 step beliefs rather than facts.

All I have here is Google.

Or maybe you just see what you want to see.

In my googling, this was the very first result.

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/alcoholism

None of which, all from currently recognized medical dictionaries, define it as you do.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[RonD1120 62]

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A medical definition will be found in a medical dictionary.
I challenge you to crack one open rather than continue to cite emotional 12 step beliefs rather than facts.

All I have here is Google.

Or maybe you just see what you want to see.

In my googling, this was the very first result.

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/alcoholism

None of which, all from currently recognized medical dictionaries, define it as you do.

Here is the first paragraph. C what U want to C.

Alcoholism or alcohol dependence is defined by the American Medical Association (AMA) as "a primary, chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations."

I'm through. You just go round and round like so many others. It is really a waste of time when the entertainment value is gone. You sig line tells it like it is.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[quade 4]

Again, where in that is YOUR claim of death unless treated?

Nowhere.

Why?

Because that isn't part of the definition as you had claimed it was.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Shotgun 1]

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The end result is death unless intervened by insanity or jail.

The end result of anything is death.

Drink water long enough - death.
Breath long enough - death.
Eat tofu long enough - death.

You're going to die of something no matter what.

I'm not saying alcoholism is a good thing, but to say death is the reason it's bad is specious.

That is just the way medical science describes the disease.

OK, I've been following along here, and I think this is where the two of you started talking about two different things. I don't think quade was ever arguing that alcoholism isn't a disease. I think his point was that the end result of life is death. You're going to die whether you stop drinking or not. I think a better argument for giving up drug abuse is that you might live longer, or perhaps have a better quality of life.

[RonD1120 62]

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The end result is death unless intervened by insanity or jail.

The end result of anything is death.

Drink water long enough - death.
Breath long enough - death.
Eat tofu long enough - death.

You're going to die of something no matter what.

I'm not saying alcoholism is a good thing, but to say death is the reason it's bad is specious.

That is just the way medical science describes the disease.

OK, I've been following along here, and I think this is where the two of you started talking about two different things. I don't think quade was ever arguing that alcoholism isn't a disease. I think his point was that the end result of life is death. You're going to die whether you stop drinking or not. I think a better argument for giving up drug abuse is that you might live longer, or perhaps have a better quality of life.

Of course, that is the point. Quade just goes around in circles playing dumb to create frustration. Like I said, entertaining to a point. Then he becomes pointless. He just argues to be arguing.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[quade 4]

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Of course, that is the point.

Then why did you previously claim I meant something entirely different?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Shotgun 1]

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The end result is death unless intervened by insanity or jail.

The end result of anything is death.

Drink water long enough - death.
Breath long enough - death.
Eat tofu long enough - death.

You're going to die of something no matter what.

I'm not saying alcoholism is a good thing, but to say death is the reason it's bad is specious.

That is just the way medical science describes the disease.

OK, I've been following along here, and I think this is where the two of you started talking about two different things. I don't think quade was ever arguing that alcoholism isn't a disease. I think his point was that the end result of life is death. You're going to die whether you stop drinking or not. I think a better argument for giving up drug abuse is that you might live longer, or perhaps have a better quality of life.

Of course, that is the point. Quade just goes around in circles playing dumb to create frustration. Like I said, entertaining to a point. Then he becomes pointless. He just argues to be arguing.

Actually, you seemed to be the one who was not getting it, unless you were just playing dumb?

[jakee 1,500]

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Of course, that is the point. Quade just goes around in circles playing dumb to create frustration. Like I said, entertaining to a point. Then he becomes pointless. He just argues to be arguing.

Dude, the point is that you are attempting to hold Quade to a claim he never made. The only reason he's going around in circles is because he's chasing your bullshit.

Now, in the beginning I'd believe you genuinely got Quade and Marinus' claims mixed up, but it's been made crystal clear to you, several posts back, who said what and yet you're still trying to hold Quade to account over someone else's statement.

You must know you're wrong but your pride won't let you admit it, thus you keep trying to 'gotcha' Quade with quotes and links that have nothing to do with what he said. Circles - yes. Boring - yes. Quade - no. You.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[maadmax 0]

>All it takes is a little faith in evolution.

No faith needed, since science says it does not know how, exactly, the system evolved. All science can do is show that divine intervention (or an intelligent designer) is not _required_ to produce a bombardier beetle; evolutionary mechanisms can produce a bombardier beetle from similar ancestors. You can always say "I don't care about the science, I want to believe that God did it" and that's fine.

[billvon 3,008]

>evolution doesn't really offer much information in solving the fundamental questions of
>our existence and why we are here.

Definitely agreed. All evolution does is show us how, physically, we evolved from lower organisms. It doesn't answer any philosophical questions about the meaning of our existence.

>There is no area in the fundamental sciences that can produce a postulate explaining
>how random matter and energy will spontaneously combine to produce ever more
>complex life forms.

Sure there is.

Simpler to more complex structures - crystallography, metallurgy, geology, chemistry. Plenty of examples there.

Self-replicating molecules - chemistry. Scripps just demonstrated how very simple organic molecules can replicate forever.

More complex life - biology. There are plenty of examples of complex structures (powered flagella, wings, eyes) that evolved from simpler ones (osmotic pumps, arms, light sensitive patches.)

>" I don't believe in any gods so therefore evolution must be the god of the gaps in
>explaining how we got here"

"God of the gaps" is actually the opposite argument, that anything unexplained by science must have been engineered by God.

[Shotgun 1]

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The best argument I hear atheists using to defend "almighty evolution" as the creator and designer of the universe is ," I don't believe in any gods so therefore evolution must be the god of the gaps in explaining how we got here"

People claim evolution as "the creator and designer of the universe"? I don't think I've ever heard that.

[maadmax 0]

--Sure there is.

--Simpler to more complex structures - crystallography, metallurgy, geology, chemistry. Plenty of examples there.

--Self-replicating molecules - chemistry. Scripps just demonstrated how very simple organic molecules can replicate forever.


I have to disagree, You are describing simple chemistry and physics, not mutation & natural selection leading to sentient life

[billvon 3,008]

>I have to disagree, You are describing simple chemistry and physics, not mutation &
>natural selection leading to sentient life

Yes. That wasn't meant to demonstrate how life began - just a few examples to demonstrate how random matter can spontaneously combine to produce more complex matter.

>that is why I said "god of the gaps" its the atheists explanation of the basic questions
>of origin and meaning using evolution in place of God.

But it means the opposite of what you said. It's like saying "I can prove there is no God because there is evidence that Zeus exists."

[maadmax 0]

People claim evolution as "the creator and designer of the universe"? I don't think I've ever heard that.

[maadmax 0]

--Yes. That wasn't meant to demonstrate how life began - just a few examples to demonstrate how random matter can spontaneously combine to produce more complex matter.

Negative, your examples can go in both directions without degradation to the specimen. That is not life or evolution.

[Coreece 190]

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You'd think that if the "evolutionists" here actually cared they have more to say about something so tangible other than appeals to ridicule and complexity, i.e., "you're too stupid to understand."

If that's all you've ever taken away from the many, many information filled posts on the subject here then sorry, but it sounds like you are.

I was talking to beowulf...how many of those information filled posts were his?

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...