Most Christians accept evolution

[popsjumper 2]

Philosophy. Ain't it great.

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If God can make things happen, then either there should be detectable evidence of that or else our notions of conservation of mass and energy are incorrect.

You can't prove it.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[wmw999 2,460]

Overall, this was a really, really great post. Thanks for so much food for thought, so well expressed.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[popsjumper 2]

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Give it up. They are trolling.

And the fish are biting!

Anyway, I hope I'm not trolling. I don't disagree with the statement that science can't disprove the existence of God, I'd just add that that isn't a question that science is even concerned with. Science only comes into it when religion makes assertions about the physical world, things that can be observed, measured, and experimented on.

Hope you're doing well, Andy.

Cheers,
Don

Doing well, Don. Doing well. Still jumping I know Max is.

Yeah, I should back off. I'm probably doing more trolling than they are.


I agree with this too...with the indicated changes

"I don't disagree with the statement that science can't prove or disprove the existence of God, I'd just add that that isn't a question that science is even concerned with. "

And that's the point of it all.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[GeorgiaDon 362]

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Philosophy. Ain't it great.

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If God can make things happen, then either there should be detectable evidence of that or else our notions of conservation of mass and energy are incorrect.

You can't prove it.

You can't disprove it.

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[GeorgiaDon 362]

Thanks Wendy.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[popsjumper 2]

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Well, to be honest, they're not trying to say that religion needs to be proven by science; they just say that religion needs to be provable for them to think it's valid.

And as long as one cares about their opinion, then it bears reading. If one doesn't, then it doesn't.

To quote from memory,,,,
"You cannot prove that God exists."
"You have no proof that God exists"

How do you read that?

And, to repeat, it was pointed out to them that it cannot be done regardless of which you think they are trying to say.
So, they don't think religion is valid and they never will.

And, it's been said to them several times that they are welcome to their opinion on non-existence of God. I don't see anybody trying to subvert that.

What I do see is some believers professing their beliefs and trying to respond to their questions..

What I do see is the non-believers trying to subvert the believers....and being very nasty with them while going about it.

That's unnecessary and uncalled for.

I'm not going to ask you what you are seeing. I know you don't want to get thrown under the bus by either side of the argument.

Yeah, Don's a good guy. He's level-headed too.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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[You can't disprove it.


Rats! Got me.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Shotgun 1]

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So after all the adolescent and hateful commentary from the one side, you pick this to equate?

It's just one example. These religious threads often provide a lot of examples from both sides. Though some people only seem to see one side of it.

Part of the reason I stopped calling myself an atheist is because too many other atheists give the word a bad name.

[Meso 38]

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The irony is you rant without reading the entire post.
Read on, Meso.

Oh I read the whole post.

My posts in this thread are working at an angle directly related to the topic, but on a slight tangent.

What I am trying to say is that, science is constantly seen as the anti-Christian movement because it disagrees with Christianity's primary beliefs. The growth of science is seen as 'the war on religion' by many Christians. Instead of it being what it is - science.

As I stated before and what I am trying to get at, is that it's the Christians who are the ones in many cases trying to keep their Children from hearing about evolution in science class, or wanting creationalism to be taught in science. Even when it's not science. And they see the fact that science is a subject that contradicts their beliefs as a threat.

I also mentioned before that you will not find many atheists who go and try to force science to be taught in church study groups. Unlike the Christians who have marched against science teaching evolution, numerous times. And yet some people are still fooled into thinking that it's the atheists that are the ones trying to force their beliefs on others.

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My quote shows one scientist that can accept the two differences and most Christians can accept the two differences but some of you in here can't or won't.

I am yet to see someone here who thinks that science can disprove god. You can't disprove faith. The same way science can't disprove fairies, unicorns or any other sort of belief that is held on faith and not evidence. Beliefs are not of scientific nature, and science will never be able to completely disprove a faith based belief.

Even if science is able to pin point how the universe was created, and even if that evidence goes against Christian teachings. Majority of people who are Christians will remain Christian, you can show exactly how the world came together in a logical, scientific way some day and people will still just say "It was God who did that". The same way evolution is a proven theory with evidence in fossils, and in current life, something that has been witnessed and is clearly visible. There are plenty of people, some in this thread even that don't believe in evolution, and reject scientific evidence that disagrees with their beliefs.

My point is that any good scientist would never throw out information just because it isn't supported by their current belief. They are constantly changing their minds on things when new evidence is brought in. I can assure you if there is some voice from out of space detected through machinery saying that god exists, scientists aren't going to go "Oh damn, God spoke to us... Well... it doesn't matter, I don't believe he exists"

If any rational human being is introduced to evidence of religion being correct, he would be a fool to ignore it. And I don't think there are many people who when confirmed with the fiery pits of hell for eternity will choose to go there simply because he'd rather stick to other theories.

The problem is that the church and religion see miracles and evidence in everything, even when it's not and then expect science to follow along. One of the Catholic saints who at that point had not performed any miracles and thus could not be a saint despite the Church wanting him to be, on his death bed asked for Herring, there weren't Herring where they were so he was given Pilchards and not told that it was not Herring. He then said after eating it "That was the best Herring I have tasted". The Church concluded that it must have turned to Herring in his mouth, that was his miracle, and thus he gained Sainthood. Now I'm sorry but that is not science or evidence.

[popsjumper 2]

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The growth of science is seen as 'the war on religion' by many Christians. Instead of it being what it is - science.

True.

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As I stated before and what I am trying to get at, is that it's the Christians who are the ones in many cases trying to keep their Children from hearing about evolution in science class, or wanting creationalism to be taught in science. Even when it's not science. And they see the fact that science is a subject that contradicts their beliefs as a threat.

True.

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I also mentioned before that you will not find many atheists who go and try to force science to be taught in church study groups. Unlike the Christians who have marched against science teaching evolution, numerous times.

This happens, yes.

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And yet some people are still fooled into thinking that it's the atheists that are the ones trying to force their beliefs on others.

Yes, it happens that some people are fooled. It also happens that they are not fooled because it's true. This thread and several others like it in SC show that.

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I am yet to see someone here who thinks that science can disprove god. You can't disprove faith. The same way science can't disprove fairies, unicorns or any other sort of belief that is held on faith and not evidence.

They didn't ask to disprove anything, yes. They asked for proof that God exists.

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Beliefs are not of scientific nature, and science will never be able to completely disprove a faith based belief.

True. You should have included 'prove' also.

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There are plenty of people, some in this thread even that don't believe in evolution, and reject scientific evidence that disagrees with their beliefs.

True. I'm not sure about people in this thread but in general, yes.

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My point is that any good scientist would never throw out information just because it isn't supported by their current belief.

I would agree with that given the indeterminate qualifier 'good'.

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The problem is that the church and religion see miracles and evidence in everything, even when it's not and then expect science to follow along.

Not true. Read the thread title. It also falls on your definition of 'miracle'. To some of us, regardless of religious beliefs, it's a pure miracle that we are even here to discuss this.

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One of the Catholic saints ......Now I'm sorry but that is not science or evidence.

You are right. It's not. It's religion.


Take notice that all the things you mentioned all deal with the frailties of human beings. It's not science that's causing problems. It's not religion. It's the frailties of the people who practice either, or both.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[RonD1120 62]

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So you can't answer a simple question, nor can you use your own words to get an idea across. Try thinking for yourself sometime. I know the church forbids it, but you might be pleasantly surprised.

You see, that is the adolescent mind in argument. You ask a question and I answer from personal experience. You deny my personal experience and ask for other evidence. I provide evidence of like minded thought from other well known scholars. You accuse me of not being able to think for myself. I provide you with evidence from a first person point of view. You say first person point of view is not valid.

Bottom line, you are seeking validation for a decision that you made which caused heartache with your parents. Ergo adolescent rebellion. IMHO

That is OK with me. I do not walk in your shoes. I do not have to live with your choices.

I know that a strong defense exists for a reason. You are certainly entitled to yours. And remember, I do not have to sell. I choose to share. You may choose not to accept.

I travel a narrow path that not many seek. I like it that way.

I'm way past adolescence, but you probably associate my views with young people because your views are dying out with your generation.
~~~
No, it is your argumentative style.
~~~
I'm sorry you've spent your whole life devoted to a lie, and you're obviously too far gone to change your opinions now, but thankfully I was able to pull myself out of it. I'm not seeking validation here, I'm just trying to help others realize that they don't need to remain in your violent, intolerant cult which claims the majority of humanity will be tortured for eternity.

Your religion is a lie and you've damaged our society by perpetuating it. I'm willing to overlook that in your case due to the incredible contribution you've made to human flight.
~~~
In the world of sport parachuting about 750 people have agreed with my ministry mission. That is about par for an organization the size of USPA. I don't know of any contribution I've made to human flight.
~~~

If anyone reading this is doubting their faith, send me a PM and I'll help you the rest of the way out. Having been on both sides, I assure you it's much better to be free.

~~~
In my situation, I was a slave until Christ came into my life. I did not know what freedom was but I was chasing after it with sex, drugs and rock 'n roll. When I surrendered to the cross I attained peace of mind and my world opened up. Two years later I was completely delivered from the desire to use mood altering substances. I progressed from homelessness and addiction to having a professional career and being a solid member of the American middle class. My wife and I are enjoying our retirement, our grandchildren and our multiple property holdings. I've been blessed because I did not have what it takes but Jesus does.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[popsjumper 2]

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In my situation, I was a slave until Christ came into my life. I did not know what freedom was but I was chasing after it with sex, drugs and rock 'n roll. When I surrendered to the cross I attained peace of mind and my world opened up. Two years later I was completely delivered from the desire to use mood altering substances. I progressed from homelessness and addiction to having a professional career and being a solid member of the American middle class. My wife and I are enjoying our retirement, our grandchildren and our multiple property holdings. I've been blessed because I did not have what it takes but Jesus does.

Obviously, some would rather you remain as you were than to have a religion of any sort and cannot accept that you found a way out with help. Some would tell you that you are not allowed to say how you did it.

My hat is off to you.

So much for the views of young people regardless of physical age. Rather arrogant and intolerant, IMO.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Meso 38]

In the end it all comes down to each persons personal decisions. I have nothing against people being religious, so long as they aren't pushing their religious views on others. The only problem comes in when other peoples personal liberties are taken away because people feel that their personal belief means they must stop others from being able to live their own lives. The people who feel as though it's their responsibility to try stop others from making choices they see as bad ones.

Ironically I stopped drinking alcohol and smoking weed at the same time I stopped believing in God. But some people do require something to help them, with many it's religion, and I wouldn't look down on someone for that. Religion if practised in ones own mind and household is far less dangerous than alcohol abuse.

But again it comes down to how one practices their religion. And unfortunately vast majority think that their belief means that everyone else should have to live under the same restrictions their religion dictates them to.

I don't have to agree with peoples decisions to understand why they happened and to realize that I have no place telling them how to live. If only the people voting on laws that would permit things their religion disagrees with and those who want to remove evolution from science class would do the same.

[deltron80 0]

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~~~
In my situation, I was a slave until Christ came into my life. I did not know what freedom was but I was chasing after it with sex, drugs and rock 'n roll. When I surrendered to the cross I attained peace of mind and my world opened up. Two years later I was completely delivered from the desire to use mood altering substances. I progressed from homelessness and addiction to having a professional career and being a solid member of the American middle class. My wife and I are enjoying our retirement, our grandchildren and our multiple property holdings. I've been blessed because I did not have what it takes but Jesus does.

Well being that God doesn't exist I guess you actually did all that on your own huh? Nice job!

But seriously, it's great you were able to harness something fundamentally bad to serve as a positive force in your life. That doesn't change the fact that it's most likely not true. It's also turned you against non-believers, made you reject most of science (evolution, etc), made you think gays are evil, and has you under the false belief that you will live for eternity. I would prefer to know and accept the truth in my life than to "succeed" under a lie. An ugly truth is always better than a pleasant fiction, don't you agree?

Bottom line is that as humanity progresses and advances, we will ultimately leave all religions behind. People of the future (if we don't destroy ourselves first) will look back and snicker at your beliefs just as we do today about Odin or Zeus.

[beowulf 1]

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That doesn't change the fact that it's most likely not true.

Since there is no evidence of any deity or anything supernatural the only reasonable conclusion is that it's not true.

Odin is still being worshipped today, look up Asatru.

[billvon 3,008]

>Since there is no evidence of any deity or anything supernatural the only reasonable
>conclusion is that it's not true.

If that were the case then the only reasonable conclusion is that black holes, extraterrestrial life and the Higgs boson do not exist. But you'd be hard-pressed to find any scientists willing to sign up for those statements.

[RonD1120 62]

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I've been blessed because I did not have what it takes but Jesus does.

Well being that God doesn't exist I guess you actually did all that on your own huh? Nice job!

~~~
No, I did not.
~~~

It's also turned you against non-believers,

~~~
No, it did not.
~~~
made you reject most of science (evolution, etc),

~~~
No, it did not.
~~~

made you think gays are evil,

~~~
No, I do not.
~~~


and has you under the false belief that you will live for eternity. I would prefer to know and accept the truth in my life than to "succeed" under a lie. An ugly truth is always better than a pleasant fiction, don't you agree?

~~~
Someday we will both be judged.
~~~

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[beowulf 1]

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>Since there is no evidence of any deity or anything supernatural the only reasonable
>conclusion is that it's not true.

If that were the case then the only reasonable conclusion is that black holes, extraterrestrial life and the Higgs boson do not exist. But you'd be hard-pressed to find any scientists willing to sign up for those statements.

There is evidence of black holes. There is reasonable evidence to think there might be extraterrestrial life in that scientists have found planets that have a similar atmosphere to earths.

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The Higgs boson is a hypothetical elementary particle predicted by the Standard Model (SM) of particle physics.

from Wikipedia.

It's not reasonable to conclude the Higgs boson exists but it is probable.


Deities and the supernatural do not have any evidence to suggest they exist.

[popsjumper 2]

There's no evidence YOU exist.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[kallend 2,028]

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>Since there is no evidence of any deity or anything supernatural the only reasonable
>conclusion is that it's not true.

If that were the case then the only reasonable conclusion is that black holes, extraterrestrial life and the Higgs boson do not exist. But you'd be hard-pressed to find any scientists willing to sign up for those statements.

Your argument is silly.

There is a huge amount of evidence that black holes exist, and very strong circumstantial evidence for the Higgs (just as strong as for the top quark before 1995 and the bottom quark before 1977).

There was no direct evidence that the South Pole existed before 1912 but Amundsen had every reason to believe that it was there based on existing verifiable reproducible knowledge.



There is absolutely no objective evidence at all for the existence of any deity.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[beowulf 1]

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Your argument is silly.

The silliness of an argument hasn't stopped anyone.

[winsor 236]

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Your argument is silly.

The silliness of an argument hasn't stopped anyone.

Indeed, it would seem that the sillier it is, the more attractive it appears to many.

Reading various "Holy Books" (The Book of Mormon, Dianetics, The Koran) one is struck by a level of nonsense that would embarrass most self-respecting comic book authors.

I again assert that our only inexhaustible natural resource is, in fact, stupidity, and religion thus taps into a bottomless wellspring of inanity.


BSBD,

Winsor

[kallend 2,028]

You are such an optimist you put the rest of us to shame.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,008]

>There is a huge amount of evidence that black holes exist, and very strong
>circumstantial evidence for the Higgs . . .

Agreed. But the same can be said for God. (i.e. he parted the Red Sea, Jesus healed lepers etc) Thus the weakness in the argument "if there's evidence for it, it exists" (or more accurately "if there's no evidence it doesn't exist.")

[beowulf 1]

There is no cirmumstancial evidence of God. There are only stories describing things that he supposedly has done that can not be verified in any way. The same thing can not be said for the Higgs Boson.

If there is no evidence that something exists then it's not reasonable to conclude that it does exist.