beowulf 1 #1076 July 3, 2012 QuoteI didn't justify anything...that's just what you want to believe. No that is what you wrote. If that isn't what you meant then you need to learn to express your thoughts better. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #1077 July 3, 2012 QuoteBTW, The Christian persecution wasn't done by atheists. The Jews and Romans believed in God and gods respectively. Blah blah...you may wanna do a little more research instead of turning a blind eye in YOUR attemt at justification, lol...Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #1078 July 3, 2012 QuoteQuoteI didn't justify anything...that's just what you want to believe. No that is what you wrote. If that isn't what you meant then you need to learn to express your thoughts better. You need to just read what I actually wrote instead of interjecting your own meaning and just making shit up.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #1079 July 3, 2012 QuoteQuoteBTW, The Christian persecution wasn't done by atheists. The Jews and Romans believed in God and gods respectively. Blah blah...you may wanna do a little more research instead of turning a blind eye in YOUR attemt at justification, lol... Your example specified the Jews and Romans as the ones persecuting Christians. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #1080 July 3, 2012 Ohmmm, ohmmmm, ohmmmm... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OdXx8KgnOUYour secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #1081 July 3, 2012 QuoteQuoteHumans are spirit, they have a soul and live in a body. How do you know this? I researched it back in the 80's when I had a private Christian counseling practice.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #1082 July 3, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteHumans are spirit, they have a soul and live in a body. How do you know this? I researched it back in the 80's when I had a private Christian counseling practice. What evidence did you find and how did you test it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #1083 July 3, 2012 Quote Quote Quote Humans are spirit, they have a soul and live in a body. How do you know this? I researched it back in the 80's when I had a private Christian counseling practice. Great...that should keep him busy for awhile running around in a circle of redundancy. "Where's the scientific evidence?" "How do you know? "Where's the scientific evidence" "How do you know...how do you know, how do you know, how do you know, how do you know...." Have fun...Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #1084 July 3, 2012 Quote Quote Quote Quote Humans are spirit, they have a soul and live in a body. How do you know this? I researched it back in the 80's when I had a private Christian counseling practice. Great...that should keep him busy for awhile running around in a circle of redundancy. "Where's the scientific evidence?" "How do you know? "Where's the scientific evidence" "How do you know...how do you know, how do you know, how do you know, how do you know...." Have fun... So you apparently think he doesn't have any evidence to support his assertion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #1085 July 3, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteHumans are spirit, they have a soul and live in a body. How do you know this? I researched it back in the 80's when I had a private Christian counseling practice. What evidence did you find and how did you test it? Read Correece above. Suffice to say it came with my matriculation to the Master's level at the University of South Florida, ordination in the Covenant Church of Tampa and Elder in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) Do your own research pal. The info is available to all.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 362 #1086 July 3, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteHumans are spirit, they have a soul and live in a body. How do you know this? I researched it back in the 80's when I had a private Christian counseling practice.Hey Ron, Out of curiosity (maybe morbid curiosity), what's your take on mental illness? If the "person" part of us (the part that is conscious, that makes moral choices, etc) is distinct from the physical body and just uses it as housing for a while, how is it possible for physical conditions, such as defects in serotonin metabolism or dopamine receptors or whatever, to change the nature of the spirit so that it becomes paranoid, or sees/hears things that aren't there, etc? Are paranoid schizophrenics just bad spirits? Cheers, Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #1087 July 3, 2012 Quote Out of curiosity (maybe morbid curiosity), what's your take on mental illness? If the "person" part of us (the part that is conscious, that makes moral choices, etc) is distinct from the physical body and just uses it as housing for a while, how is it possible for physical conditions, such as defects in serotonin metabolism or dopamine receptors or whatever, to change the nature of the spirit so that it becomes paranoid, or sees/hears things that aren't there, etc? Are paranoid schizophrenics just bad spirits? Cheers, Don That is an excellent question. Unfortunately, I am not able to give a conclusive professional answer. My work was primarily as a substance use disorder counselor and not a mental health counselor. First I believe, as I stated above, there is a difference between the spirit of man and the soul of man. The soul is defined by some, and I accept this definition, as the mind, emotions and will. I assume you are familiar with Multiaxial Diagnosis. Axis I represents treatable mental illness and Axis II represents personality disorders which are generally not directly treated. Schizophrenia is the bugaboo Axis I diagnosis. No one knows for certain what causes it and how to cure it. We can only help the patient manage it. Is it evil spirits that throw the body chemistry haywire? Is it the predisposition of genetic factors from family history? Is it the byproduct of socio-environmental factors? Who knows? Dr. Bill Wilson, former medical director of the School of Psychiatry at Duke University, in the 80's attempted to approach psychiatry from a spiritual point of view and wrote some papers on the subject. I do not believe the spirit develops the mental illness. I see it as the elan vital of life. I believe a person's spirit can be strengthened or weakened. Axis I illnesses are, I believe, neurological and physiological. My job as a counselor was/is not to find the cure but to assist in individual patient/client make better, viable, more proactive positive decisions to live with and/or decrease the power of the mental condition burdening him. To that end I was/am eclectic in my approach. The journey begins with establishing a client/counselor relationship and determining what works. What works is defined and determined by the client. It is subject to change as the client sees fit. If the Axis I diagnosis requires Rx medication management then part of the counselling therapy is to establish a routine to maintain the prescription regimen. The model I previously described; we are spirit, we have a soul, which is the mind, emotions and will, and live in a physical body; does not allow for any one part of the human experience to be separate from the others. It is a homeostasis, they all fit together and the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, a Gestalt. Can prayer be useful along with medication, therapy, good diet, exercise, and better decision making? Yes I believe it can.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,500 #1088 July 3, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteHumans are spirit, they have a soul and live in a body. How do you know this? I researched it back in the 80's when I had a private Christian counseling practice. What evidence did you find and how did you test it? Read Correece above. Suffice to say it came with my matriculation to the Master's level at the University of South Florida, ordination in the Covenant Church of Tampa and Elder in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) Ah, so you made it up. Cool.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #1089 July 3, 2012 Tomorrow we celebrate 236 years since we told England to go stick it where the sun doesn't shine. It's times like these when I still get a warm fuzzy feeling. You have a good day now, ya hear. Just a little American humor at your expense. Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #1090 July 4, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteHumans are spirit, they have a soul and live in a body. How do you know this? I researched it back in the 80's when I had a private Christian counseling practice. What evidence did you find and how did you test it? Read Correece above. Suffice to say it came with my matriculation to the Master's level at the University of South Florida, ordination in the Covenant Church of Tampa and Elder in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) Ah, so you made it up. Cool. That's pretty standard. All they do is reinterpret the Bible, since there is no actual evidence. If there were any real evidence then it would pretty much destroy their whole doctrine of faith. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #1091 July 4, 2012 QuoteHow exactly can you argue against an illogical, incoherent and downright dangerous position that absolutely cannot be swayed no matter what argument is presented? Is that not crazy? Yep. It's crazy to try to argue against something you know you are not going to change no matter how you try. It's baffling why you guys are so dead-set on doing it and why it's so important to you do so.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #1092 July 4, 2012 QuoteI am, but the more meaningful definition of carnal seems to ellude you... His prof hasn't told him what to think about that word as yet.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #1093 July 4, 2012 Quote But they've done that with orgasms too, and with halucinogens. Hey! They still running those 'sperements'? I'd like to sign up.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 362 #1094 July 4, 2012 QuoteQuote Out of curiosity (maybe morbid curiosity), what's your take on mental illness? If the "person" part of us (the part that is conscious, that makes moral choices, etc) is distinct from the physical body and just uses it as housing for a while, how is it possible for physical conditions, such as defects in serotonin metabolism or dopamine receptors or whatever, to change the nature of the spirit so that it becomes paranoid, or sees/hears things that aren't there, etc? Are paranoid schizophrenics just bad spirits? Cheers, Don That is an excellent question. Unfortunately, I am not able to give a conclusive professional answer. My work was primarily as a substance use disorder counselor and not a mental health counselor. First I believe, as I stated above, there is a difference between the spirit of man and the soul of man. The soul is defined by some, and I accept this definition, as the mind, emotions and will. ...Thanks for your response, Ron. I wasn't looking for your "professional answer" so much as some idea of how you reconcile the idea of a non-physical spirit (the "mind, emotions, and will" as you state) with mental illness. It sounds as if you accept the idea that someone can be mentally ill, which I appreciate. Living in the South, I often get the idea that many people here do not believe in mental illness, at least not as a physical condition, but rather believe that "crazy" behavior is entirely voluntary and just reflects an evil "spirit". I wonder if this attitude isn't rooted in the notion that the "mind, spirit, and will" is intrinsically different from the physical body, so when people behave badly it must be because they are evil, not because they have a physical disease. Anyway, I don't understand how an immaterial "spirit" can be affected by drugs that affect brain chemistry. There are a variety of drugs that can help alleviate symptoms of schizophrenia. bipolar disorder, etc. These disorders strongly affect the "mind, spirit,and will"; if these aspects of human nature are not based in physical structures of the brain, how can they be affected by chemicals that merely change brain biochemistry? I hope you have a great, safe and happy 4th! Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #1095 July 4, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuote Out of curiosity (maybe morbid curiosity), what's your take on mental illness? If the "person" part of us (the part that is conscious, that makes moral choices, etc) is distinct from the physical body and just uses it as housing for a while, how is it possible for physical conditions, such as defects in serotonin metabolism or dopamine receptors or whatever, to change the nature of the spirit so that it becomes paranoid, or sees/hears things that aren't there, etc? Are paranoid schizophrenics just bad spirits? Cheers, Don That is an excellent question. Unfortunately, I am not able to give a conclusive professional answer. My work was primarily as a substance use disorder counselor and not a mental health counselor. First I believe, as I stated above, there is a difference between the spirit of man and the soul of man. The soul is defined by some, and I accept this definition, as the mind, emotions and will. ...Thanks for your response, Ron. I wasn't looking for your "professional answer" so much as some idea of how you reconcile the idea of a non-physical spirit (the "mind, emotions, and will" as you state) with mental illness. It sounds as if you accept the idea that someone can be mentally ill, which I appreciate. Living in the South, I often get the idea that many people here do not believe in mental illness, at least not as a physical condition, but rather believe that "crazy" behavior is entirely voluntary and just reflects an evil "spirit". I wonder if this attitude isn't rooted in the notion that the "mind, spirit, and will" is intrinsically different from the physical body, so when people behave badly it must be because they are evil, not because they have a physical disease. Anyway, I don't understand how an immaterial "spirit" can be affected by drugs that affect brain chemistry. There are a variety of drugs that can help alleviate symptoms of schizophrenia. bipolar disorder, etc. These disorders strongly affect the "mind, spirit,and will"; if these aspects of human nature are not based in physical structures of the brain, how can they be affected by chemicals that merely change brain biochemistry? I hope you have a great, safe and happy 4th! Don Thank you and I wish you likewise. We saw a good fireworks display last night at the Georgia Mountain Fairgrounds. We may seek out another somewhere tonight. You have me thinking and not certain if I am on the same page with you. For me, the spirit is the motivator and the soul is what is affected/effected. For example, a spirit of rebellion leads someone to choose drug use. The pleasure derived from the dopamine release then leads to continued use and possibly addiction. Addiction is physical and can be treated. Then once alleviated we are again back to the spirit of rebellion to choose again. Is this the direction you were headed?Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marinus 0 #1096 July 4, 2012 Quoteredundancy. You know what's also redundant? The soul and the spirit. If you take some time to study what happens to someone's personality when their brain is damaged, it's rather obvious that one's personality, the I, is a function of the brain. Especially with progressive brain diseases like Alzheimer this is clear to see. The personality alters, diminishes and in the end stage it's just an empty shell. What made the person himself, his brain cells, is broken beyond the most basic functions, and the personality seizes to exist. There's no essence (or whatever a soul is) of that person left to be found. We experience our mind as separate from our bodies, that's where the whole soul thingy probably comes from, but reality makes it clear our mind is nothing but a function of a organ system in your head. You change that organ, you change your mind. Literally Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #1097 July 4, 2012 Apparently, some asked for change for a dime and only got 9 cents back.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,500 #1098 July 4, 2012 Quote Tomorrow we celebrate 236 years since we told England to go stick it where the sun doesn't shine. It's times like these when I still get a warm fuzzy feeling. You have a good day now, ya hear. Just a little American humor at your expense. At my expense? Funnily enough I wasn't involved in 18th century foreign policy, so it really doesn't bother meDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deltron80 0 #1099 July 4, 2012 QuoteQuoteI am, but the more meaningful definition of carnal seems to ellude you... His prof hasn't told him what to think about that word as yet. The only comment you ever have for me is to criticize me for going to college because I mentioned a class I took once. It's getting a bit stale. You don't see me critiquing your education or lack thereof. Ron seems pretty proud of his education so why not bash him for a while? And anyway I think churches win over colleges in the brainwashing department. Happy 4th. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #1100 July 5, 2012 QuoteThe only comment you ever have for me is to criticize me for going to college because I mentioned a class I took once. It's getting a bit stale. You don't see me critiquing your education or lack thereof. Ron seems pretty proud of his education so why not bash him for a while? You just may be right on the edge of understanding with a ways to go yet. -Did you notice that it's OK for you to bash somebody else but it upsets you when somebody "bashes" you? Why do you feel the need to bash anybody? -Personally, it appears to me that you are not thinking for yourself. It appears to me that you are not even making the effort. It's not at all that you are simply "in college". It's not at all about your education. It's about what you are letting it do to you. In light of your previous comments about your professors telling you what to read and what to believe, it appears that they are still brainwashing you. I might be wrong but there you have it. Wake up man, college is about learning how to think....not what to think. (Waiting for Kallend's rebuttal)My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
