normiss 805 #76 July 9, 2012 Not in the least. He IS a politician. I find no need to call people names to express that though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #77 July 9, 2012 QuoteNot in the least. He IS a politician. I find no need to call people names to express that though. Where did I call anyone a name? or was that just a gratuitous remark out of nowhere?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #78 July 10, 2012 Quote How many illegal votes were cast in the last Presidential election? If you do not have that number, then it is impossible to claim you know how big the problem is. We know the "problem" is completely dwarfed by unintentional errors in counting. We've covered this before. But what I want to know is why you've abandoned the American principle of presumption of innocence to support the purging of American voters. That's pretty fucked up, and we know how you feel about that sort of presumption when it comes to second amendment rights. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #79 July 10, 2012 QuoteQuote How many illegal votes were cast in the last Presidential election? If you do not have that number, then it is impossible to claim you know how big the problem is. We know the "problem" is completely dwarfed by unintentional errors in counting. We've covered this before. But what I want to know is why you've abandoned the American principle of presumption of innocence to support the purging of American voters. That's pretty fucked up, and we know how you feel about that sort of presumption when it comes to second amendment rights. Indiana, no known cases of voter fraud. Pennsylvania, no known cases of voter fraud Texas, 4 cases. Clearly voter fraud is a serious problem that needs draconian measures to correct.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #80 July 10, 2012 >But what I want to know is why you've abandoned the American principle >of presumption of innocence to support the purging of American voters. Because, in general, republicans feel they can purge more democratic voters than republican voters. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #81 July 10, 2012 Quote>But what I want to know is why you've abandoned the American principle >of presumption of innocence to support the purging of American voters. Because, in general, republicans feel they can purge more democratic voters than republican voters. probably true just like democrats feel they purge more rep voters than dem voters by blocking legal military absentee votes one has to decide on their own which party has the moral high side in comparison - if one exists ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #82 July 15, 2012 It will be interesting to see what happens in FL now. Given the fact that the feds have now allowed FL access to the Homeland Security data base. This post is more pointed at your assertion that voter fraud is so limited it need not be addressed http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/07/14/Ballot-fraud-part-of-new-york"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,453 #83 July 15, 2012 In Texas at least it seems that the biggest loophole in the voter ID law is that write-in ballots don't need any sort of verification. If there was ever a situation where forgery could take place it seems that a write-in ballot would be a good candidate. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #84 July 16, 2012 QuoteBut what I want to know is why you've abandoned the American principle of presumption of innocence to support the purging of American voters. That's pretty fucked up, and we know how you feel about that sort of presumption when it comes to second amendment rights. What I love s how you just made that up. All I ever said is you should have to be a citizen to vote and asking for you to prove that is not asking much.... I mean you seem to be fine with me having to show ID to buy a gun, why should that SAME standard not apply to voting? And unless you have data to show how many illegal votes have been cast... you are tailing out of your ass when you claim it is not many.... Fact is you can't prove that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #85 July 16, 2012 >And unless you have data to show how many illegal votes have been cast... you >are tailing out of your ass when you claim it is not many.... And if you don't have data, your contention that it is an issue is not credible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #86 July 16, 2012 Quote>And unless you have data to show how many illegal votes have been cast... you >are tailing out of your ass when you claim it is not many.... And if you don't have data, your contention that it is an issue is not credible JUST as valid as yours that it is not a problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #87 July 16, 2012 >JUST as valid as yours that it is not a problem. Right. Without good data we don't know. So the default should be to NOT make it harder to vote to try to fix a completely unknown problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #88 July 16, 2012 Quote>JUST as valid as yours that it is not a problem. Right. Without good data we don't know. So the default should be to NOT make it harder to vote to try to fix a completely unknown problem. No, the solution would be to identify if it is a problem, not to just ignore it. Now.... How would you suggest trying to see if it is a problem without having people show ID? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #89 July 16, 2012 >No, the solution would be to identify if it is a problem, not to just ignore it. OK, great, go for it. >How would you suggest trying to see if it is a problem without having people show ID? Go through the voter rolls retroactively. Call people and see if they voted; use regular polling techniques to get a sense of the overall accuracy of the poll. If they were recorded as voting, but did not, tally them and you'll have an indication of the severity of the problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #90 July 16, 2012 QuoteQuoteBut what I want to know is why you've abandoned the American principle of presumption of innocence to support the purging of American voters. That's pretty fucked up, and we know how you feel about that sort of presumption when it comes to second amendment rights. What I love s how you just made that up. All I ever said is you should have to be a citizen to vote and asking for you to prove that is not asking much.... I mean you seem to be fine with me having to show ID to buy a gun, why should that SAME standard not apply to voting? And unless you have data to show how many illegal votes have been cast... you are tailing out of your ass when you claim it is not many.... Fact is you can't prove that. a big part of the problem with you disappearing for a week at a time and resurrecting dead threads is your inability to keep context in your mind. We were talking about voter purges here, not voter ID. Dumping people 6 weeks before an election because they might not be legal voters is an example of presumption of guilt. You argued that this is acceptable because the alternative is that there might be an (imaginary) number of fraudulent votes that matches or exceeds the number of legal voters that would be disenfranchised in a purge. But since you have no fucking idea how many illegal votes there are, we only know the Americans getting screwed. So then we're on your favorite question - how do we count illegal votes? It feels like imaginary number math to me... For large scale fraud, you're looking for end results dramatically different from pre election polls and exit polls. But that's not fully reliable as there are many flaws in polling, starting with the participants lying (Bradley effect). Instead you look at how can they cheat. In the case that keeps getting raised to promote voter ID - they walk to a poll, see a name, and claim to be that person - it's pretty easy to detect. In an election with 50% turnout, 50% of the time you're going to get a second person (or absentee ballot) showing up. Bit of a give away, no? Easily measured and any sizeable number of such incidents would be indication that concerted voter fraud is occurring. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #91 July 17, 2012 Quote>JUST as valid as yours that it is not a problem. Right. Without good data we don't know. So the default should be to NOT make it harder to vote to try to fix a completely unknown problem. This is good data QuoteA new Mason-Dixon poll of Florida voters found an overwhelming majority (82%) of Floridians support laws that require voters to present Photo IDs at the polls and a majority (54%), including 60% of Hispanics, favor Florida Gov. Rick Scott’s plans to purge non-citizens from the Sunshine State's voter rolls. When asked, “Do you support or oppose requiring Floridians to provide photo identification at the polls in order to vote in an election?,” 82% supported requiring Photo IDs while only 15% opposed. The support was overwhelming across all demographics with 82% of men and women, 87% of Whites, 61% of Blacks, 77% of Hispanics, 71% of Democrats, 93% of Republicans, and 86% of Independents in support. Seems the people of the state agree No matter the demographic"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #92 July 17, 2012 >This is good data It's not data, it's a poll. And we know your opinion on polls: ========= You can get the report to say anything I wanted it too and could get it to show anything I wanted. . . .In the end there is only one poll that counts. That one is coming this Nov. ========= Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #93 July 17, 2012 Quote>This is good data --- It's not data, it's a poll. polling data is still data (though one I'm never thrilled to analyze - I prefer direct data collection, but no such things when opinions are involved) actually, it's only summary statistics of a poll data set - one that doesn't include error bands One nice thing - if that's the actual wording of the poll, then it's pretty objectively written. Nice to see for once. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #94 July 17, 2012 Quote>This is good data It's not data, it's a poll. And we know your opinion on polls: ========= You can get the report to say anything I wanted it too and could get it to show anything I wanted. . . .In the end there is only one poll that counts. That one is coming this Nov. ========= Yes But this one helps show who's opinions are in the minority And I think those being affected by the actions of the state have the loudest word on whether is it the correct thing to do or not And, I do look at the questions when they are made available and, as others have posted, it seems to be fairly worded. So the work continues in FL As it should It needs to get done everywhere"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #95 July 17, 2012 Quote So the work continues in FL As it should It needs to get done everywhere should have been done last year. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #96 July 18, 2012 http://www.npr.org/2012/07/18/156935624/study-many-could-face-obstacles-in-voter-id-laws Yep, "Just go get an ID, it's easy", unless you are one of those where it is not. And FL reports on the news this morning that it is highly unlikely that they will be able to do a reliable comparison of the DHS databases in time for the election. So far, FL has only 2700 'suspect' voters, of which several hundred have already been cleared as eligible. The report in the news article executive summary says hundreds of thousands could be affected: http://www.brennancenter.org/content/resource/the_challenge_of_obtaining_voter_identification#summ Which basically makes my case - not statistically significant a problem, whereas the voter purge could do FAR MORE damage to the rights of voters, trying to fix a statistically insignificant problem. I wonder if purged voters that are disenfranchised because of the voter ID issue would also be disenfranchised about bothering to sue the State over being wrongly purged. I would hope not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #97 July 18, 2012 Quotehttp://www.npr.org/2012/07/18/156935624/study-many-could-face-obstacles-in-voter-id-laws Yep, "Just go get an ID, it's easy", unless you are one of those where it is not. And FL reports on the news this morning that it is highly unlikely that they will be able to do a reliable comparison of the DHS databases in time for the election. So far, FL has only 2700 'suspect' voters, of which several hundred have already been cleared as eligible. The report in the news article executive summary says hundreds of thousands could be affected: http://www.brennancenter.org/content/resource/the_challenge_of_obtaining_voter_identification#summ Which basically makes my case - not statistically significant a problem, whereas the voter purge could do FAR MORE damage to the rights of voters, trying to fix a statistically insignificant problem. I wonder if purged voters that are disenfranchised because of the voter ID issue would also be disenfranchised about bothering to sue the State over being wrongly purged. I would hope not. If only life was as simple and fair as you believe it should be"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #98 July 18, 2012 How many votes did Bush win by in 2000? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #99 July 18, 2012 Quote If only life was as simple and fair as you believe it should be Do you believe life should be unfair, then?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #100 July 18, 2012 QuoteQuote If only life was as simple and fair as you believe it should be Do you believe life should be unfair, then? Nope but I understand that it is How about you?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
