Whats so wrong with Obama care?

[Bolas 5]

I've got a helmet I'll sell you for $50 or you can pay me a $15 for not buying it. You can call it a tax credit, an incentive, a fine, a penalty, whatever as long as I get at least $15 from you.

I take PayPal.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[billvon 2,991]

>I've got a helmet I'll sell you for $50 or you can pay me a $15 for not buying it.

If you have to have a helmet to jump, and your choices are buying one for $50 from Para-Gear - or buying it from you for $30 but paying you a $15 penalty - then most skydivers will choose the penalty. Even if you call it an evil greedy tax penalty.

Or they could leave the DZ that required helmets, of course.

[Bolas 5]

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>I've got a helmet I'll sell you for $50 or you can pay me a $15 for not buying it.

If you have to have a helmet to jump, and your choices are buying one for $50 from Para-Gear - or buying it from you for $30 but paying you a $15 penalty - then most skydivers will choose the penalty. Even if you call it an evil greedy tax penalty.

Or they could leave the DZ that required helmets, of course.

Ugh. (Shake head)

Only two choices:
1. Buy my helmet for $50.
2. Pay me $15 fine/penalty/tax to NOT buy it.

There is no $30 helmet option.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[rushmc 23]

How about this?

http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/inside-politics/2012/jul/24/nearly-one-10-employers-drop-health-coverage/

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About one in 10 employers plan to drop health coverage when key provisions of the new health care law kick in less than two years from now, according to a survey to be released Tuesday by the consulting company Deloitte.

Nine percent of companies said they expect to stop offering coverage to their workers in the next one to three years, the Wall Street Journal reported. Around 81 percent said they would continue providing benefits and 10 percent said they weren't sure.

The companies, though, said a lot will depend on how future provisions of the law unfold, since most of the key parts are scheduled to take effect in 2014. One in three respondents said they could stop offering coverage if the law requires them to provide more generous benefits than they do now, if a tax on high-cost plans takes effect in 2018 as scheduled or if they decide it would be cheaper for them to pay the penalty for not providing insurance.

While small business don't face fines for failing to offer coverage, companies with 50 or more full time employees face a penalty starting at $2,000 per worker.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SkyDekker 1,465]

That is a lot of what-ifs, coulds and woulds.

[rushmc 23]

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That is a lot of what-ifs, coulds and woulds.

Ahh, that is how the law was sold to the public!

And remember, is was to cost only 900 billion, then 1.2 trillion and now projected to cost nearly 2 trillion?

It is how the game is played

Then you believe what you want (for many, facts be damned)

But what is NOT in doubt is the fact that much of what was predicted to happen, is starting years earlier than projected

Not good for Obamacare

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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fact that much of what was predicted to happen, is starting years earlier than projected

What has happened now, that was predicted to happen years later?

[rushmc 23]

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fact that much of what was predicted to happen, is starting years earlier than projected

What has happened now, that was predicted to happen years later?

Two easy examples

1) costs are rising faster than they were
2) companies are dropping employee coverage

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[ChangoLanzao 0]

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fact that much of what was predicted to happen, is starting years earlier than projected

What has happened now, that was predicted to happen years later?

Two easy examples

1) costs are rising faster than they were
2) companies are dropping employee coverage

Doesn't get any easier than that!

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Two easy examples

1) costs are rising faster than they were
2) companies are dropping employee coverage

Costs have already risin, or are projected to rise?

Companies have already dropped employee coverage or companies say they might, would, could, what if, etc.?

[airdvr 210]

Interesting thought about employers threatening to drop healthcare because the penalty is less expensive than the employer participation; if the insurance companies aren't complete idiots they will be designing policies that are less expensive for the employer. If it's less expensive for the employer it follows that it ought to be less expensive for the employee. Hmmm

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[Bolas 5]

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Interesting thought about employers threatening to drop healthcare because the penalty is less expensive than the employer participation; if the insurance companies aren't complete idiots they will be designing policies that are less expensive for the employer. If it's less expensive for the employer it follows that it ought to be less expensive for the employee. Hmmm

They'd prefer to have individuals vs. a business as businesses use their size to get better rates/coverage.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[weekender 0]

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Interesting thought about employers threatening to drop healthcare because the penalty is less expensive than the employer participation; if the insurance companies aren't complete idiots they will be designing policies that are less expensive for the employer. If it's less expensive for the employer it follows that it ought to be less expensive for the employee. Hmmm

part of the problem is the insurance companies are not allowed to structure policies so they are cheaper like they did in the past. States have ruled that they must cover things even if the customer doesnt want them. for example in NJ all policies must cover masage therapy, chiropractors and autism for children. I dont have children and dont want to ever visit the other two. It doesnt matter, i must pay for them because they must cover them. its the law.

when i graduated college i bought a policy for 80USD a month. it had a very high deductible and only covered major medical problems. they dont offer those anymore in many states.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[rushmc 23]

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Interesting thought about employers threatening to drop healthcare because the penalty is less expensive than the employer participation; if the insurance companies aren't complete idiots they will be designing policies that are less expensive for the employer. If it's less expensive for the employer it follows that it ought to be less expensive for the employee. Hmmm

part of the problem is the insurance companies are not allowed to structure policies so they are cheaper like they did in the past. States have ruled that they must cover things even if the customer doesnt want them. for example in NJ all policies must cover masage therapy, chiropractors and autism for children. I dont have children and dont want to ever visit the other two. It doesnt matter, i must pay for them because they must cover them. its the law.

when i graduated college i bought a policy for 80USD a month. it had a very high deductible and only covered major medical problems. they dont offer those anymore in many states.

All good points that many have brought up before

Tort reform, cross state line compitition, removal of state mandates are three things that would have a major impact on insurance pricing

Being allowed to pick the coverage you want, interstate compitition, and allowing the insurance companies to build custom plans would go a ways toward slowing cost increases

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[DaVinci 0]

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Going to the club being analogous to living in the US, of course.

False again... See before the bill I didn't have to choose to go to the club, or pay a fine for NOT going to the club.

This is a very simple flaw in your explanation.

[kallend 2,026]

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Going to the club being analogous to living in the US, of course.

False again... See before the bill I didn't have to choose to go to the club, or pay a fine for NOT going to the club.

This is a very simple flaw in your explanation.

His logic is far better than yours, or your math skills, however.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jcd11235 0]

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Going to the club being analogous to living in the US, of course.

False again... See before the bill I didn't have to choose to go to the club, or pay a fine for NOT going to the club.

That would imply that the club previously had no cover charge. It does now. That's not relevant, though.

The same financial incentive to do a particular thing can be viewed as a financial penalty for not doing that thing. The debate over whether the individual mandate is a penalty for not buying insurance or a tax and tax credit for buying insurance is like arguing over whether a glass is half full or half empty. Both descriptions mean the same thing.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Bolas 5]

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Going to the club being analogous to living in the US, of course.

False again... See before the bill I didn't have to choose to go to the club, or pay a fine for NOT going to the club.

That would imply that the club previously had no cover charge. It does now. That's not relevant, though.

The same financial incentive to do a particular thing can be viewed as a financial penalty for not doing that thing. The debate over whether the individual mandate is a penalty for not buying insurance or a tax and tax credit for buying insurance is like arguing over whether a glass is half full or half empty. Both descriptions mean the same thing.

So you see no difference in a disincentive from an incentive?

You see no difference between punishment and reward?

Still got that helmet for ya...

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[DaVinci 0]

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His logic is far better than yours, or your math skills, however.

I thought there were rules about personal attacks?

[DaVinci 0]

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That would imply that the club previously had no cover charge. It does now. That's not relevant, though.

It is completely relevant... You created the cover charge and then created a penalty for not going.

[jcd11235 0]

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His logic is far better than yours, or your math skills, however.

I thought there were rules about personal attacks?

Are you suggesting that the exact same comment that I found complimentary you found insulting? How could that possibly be?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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His logic is far better than yours, or your math skills, however.

I thought there were rules about personal attacks?

Are you suggesting that the exact same comment that I found complimentary you found insulting? How could that possibly be?

[golfclap]