Ever answer your front door while armed???

[kelpdiver 2]

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Do you know of any jurisdiction in which a cop, when faced with someone pointing at him a gun that he reasonably believes to be functional and loaded, does not have the right to shoot that person?

In what situations do you believe a civilian in Florida would be justified in shooting someone under SYG, but an on-duty cop in an identical situation would not?

that's really not asking the right question, even if we write off the possibility that the cops lied about the gun being pointed in the first place.

If the cops instigate a confrontation without naming themselves as LEOs, they cause the situation. The best example of this are the no knock raids on the wrong address. So the question really is about their responsibilities around mistakes prior to the event where a civilian points a gun at a cop. The criminal side gives great leeway, though the civil side ($$) does not.

[jcd11235 0]

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Do you know of any jurisdiction in which a cop, when faced with someone pointing at him a gun that he reasonably believes to be functional and loaded, does not have the right to shoot that person?

In what situations do you believe a civilian in Florida would be justified in shooting someone under SYG, but an on-duty cop in an identical situation would not?

that's really not asking the right question

Sure it is.

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[SkyDekker 1,465]

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If the cops instigate a confrontation without naming themselves as LEOs, they cause the situation.

You mean by doing something legal like knocking on a door?

If that is the case, wouldn't you also start a situation if you do something legal like following somebody?

[christelsabine 1]

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I will never understand opening the door when the cops says "It's the police!".

I call 911 while asking if they have a warrant for this address and who's name is on it.

I don't talk to cops. I can't trust them.

So why do you call them, then?

Your reply is bloodcurling, really. If you do not trust your own police, who the hell is your contact person in case you need help?

Our police forces enjoy recognition and trust of our population. No doubt about it.

Few days ago, I came back from a longer flight, jetlag etc. ... impossible to find sleep. Early in the morning, it was about 5, I saw the blue lights of police cars in front of my house, loud voices - one of my neighbours (a manager of a 1st class restaurant) had been missed by his boss since 2 days, police was asking everybody around my house including me to look for this man (he suffered from depression after divorce). They found him near his house next to mine, he way lying behind the garage in his garden under dark bushes, full of *little helpers* and just wanted to die (or to forget).

Police officers were ringing at every door around his house, nobody was in doubt it's the police - yep, I just feel safe with those fellows.

I slowly start to understand why some of you guys think it's better to own guns. And I do not feel like a sheeple at all

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[normiss 851]

Our cops used to be like that....

Now if the cops show up, generally someone is going to jail.
Everything you say to a cop is considered evidence and used against you. Without an attorney, you're fucked.

[DaVinci 0]

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I see you conveniently ignored both of my questions:

No, I answered, you just didn't seem to understand the answers.

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Do you know of any jurisdiction in which a cop, when faced with someone pointing at him a gun that he reasonably believes to be functional and loaded, does not have the right to shoot that person?

And you don't get that a cop and a citizen are not the same thing? You don't get that a cop has a HIGHER duty to act properly than a citizen?

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In what situations do you believe a civilian in Florida would be justified in shooting someone under SYG, but an on-duty cop in an identical situation would not?

You just argued why SYG is a good. If a cop has no duty to retreat, why should a lower trained civilian? But to answer you question, cops have several levels to respond to a threat. A drunk guy swinging on a cop will normally get taserd, or pepper sprayed... Options that are not expected of a civilian.

[jcd11235 0]

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I see you conveniently ignored both of my questions:

No, I answered, you just didn't seem to understand the answers.

In which post did you answer?

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Do you know of any jurisdiction in which a cop, when faced with someone pointing at him a gun that he reasonably believes to be functional and loaded, does not have the right to shoot that person?

And you don't get that a cop and a citizen are not the same thing? You don't get that a cop has a HIGHER duty to act properly than a citizen?

I do get that a cop and a citizen are not the same thing. I also get that cops are generally given more latitude than citizens when it comes to using deadly force, due to the requirements of their job. It doesn't matter whether I believe it should be that way or not; that's the way it is.

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In what situations do you believe a civilian in Florida would be justified in shooting someone under SYG, but an on-duty cop in an identical situation would not?

You just argued why SYG is a good. If a cop has no duty to retreat, why should a lower trained civilian?

Because a cop has a duty to attempt to neutralize threats to society. Civilians have no such duty. Civilians also lack the training to adequately analyze a situation to determine whether a threat actually exists.

I have a hard time understanding any benefit to an SYG law that cannot be obtained from more traditional self-defense laws.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[DaVinci 0]

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In which post did you answer?

The first one i said that a cop and a citizen are not the same thing.

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I do get that a cop and a citizen are not the same thing. I also get that cops are generally given more latitude than citizens when it comes to using deadly force, due to the requirements of their job. It doesn't matter whether I believe it should be that way or not; that's the way it is.

And there you have it... they are NOT the same thing. A cop says I pulled a gun on him, I claim I didn't... Who are the other cops going to believe?

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Because a cop has a duty to attempt to neutralize threats to society. Civilians have no such duty.

We might be getting somewhere.

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I have a hard time understanding any benefit to an SYG law that cannot be obtained from more traditional self-defense laws.

How about in clear cases of SD that you would not have to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees? How about in clear cases of SD the criminal could not sue you later?

Both are protections that FL's SYG give you that normal SD defense laws do not.

[jcd11235 0]

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In which post did you answer?

The first one i said that a cop and a citizen are not the same thing.

That's not an answer. That's avoiding the question.

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How about in clear cases of SD that you would not have to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees?

Clear cut cases of self defense don't typically go to trial. If it's not clear cut, it should go to trial.

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How about in clear cases of SD the criminal could not sue you later?

I'm not aware of this being a problem. Do you have data (not anecdotes) showing that it's a problem?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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In which post did you answer?

The first one i said that a cop and a citizen are not the same thing.

That's not an answer. That's avoiding the question.

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How about in clear cases of SD that you would not have to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees?

Clear cut cases of self defense don't typically go to trial. If it's not clear cut, it should go to trial.

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How about in clear cases of SD the criminal could not sue you later?

I'm not aware of this being a problem. Do you have data (not anecdotes) showing that it's a problem?

It's a problem if it happens once. Much in the same way some of you people think assault rifles are a problem. I bet if I wanted to, which I don't, I could find a case of a criminal suing a victim for every mass shooting in the US that you can come up with.

[DaVinci 0]

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That's not an answer. That's avoiding the question.

Bull shit. You tried to compare a cops actions with a law for citizens. That is avoiding the question.

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Clear cut cases of self defense don't typically go to trial.

They did in FL. Several DA's had an 'arrest anyone with a gun' policy. This resulted in several 'clear cut' self defense shooters spending tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees.

Then, the families of the attacker often sued the shooter, AGAIN resulting in tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees.

THIS is why the SYG law was written, to protect people in clear cut cases from spending a fortune trying to stay out of trouble from overzealous DA's and greedy opportunists.

You can do a search and read up on it if you like.

[jcd11235 0]

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That's not an answer. That's avoiding the question.

Bull shit. You tried to compare a cops actions with a law for citizens. That is avoiding the question.

It's funny how you accuse me of avoiding the question that I asked, while you still haven't provided answers to them.

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They did in FL. Several DA's had an 'arrest anyone with a gun' policy. This resulted in several 'clear cut' self defense shooters spending tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees.

If they made it to trial, it's unlikely they were as clear cut as you claim. Look at all of the people who claim that the Martin killing is a clear cut case of self defense, when the details of that killing aren't at all clear.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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They did in FL. Several DA's had an 'arrest anyone with a gun' policy. This resulted in several 'clear cut' self defense shooters spending tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees.

If they made it to trial, it's unlikely they were as clear cut as you claim. Look at all of the people who claim that the Martin killing is a clear cut case of self defense, when the details of that killing aren't at all clear.

[DaVinci 0]

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It's funny how you accuse me of avoiding the question that I asked, while you still haven't provided answers to them. Crazy

I have answered your questions. You fail to recognize that a cop and a citizen is not the same thing, have different standards for action, and are held to different standards for their actions. That is not my fault that you do not grasp that simple concept showing your question to be false.

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If they made it to trial, it's unlikely they were as clear cut as you claim

BEFORE SYG..... Not now. Do some research before you try to act like an expert. Why do you think SYG was put into place?

[jcd11235 0]

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have answered your questions.

No, you haven't. Your false claims that you have only serve to indicate that you recognize that your argument lacks merit.

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[DaVinci 0]

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No, you haven't.

Yes, I have. It is not my fault you do not understand that a cop and a civilian are not the same thing.

[LongWayToFall 0]

Here is a story to show you what cops are like here:

Man gets stopped at a drunk driving checkpoint. Officer walks up to window, man driving car states "I refuse to answer any questions." Cop asks if he has been drinking, again man states "I refuse to answer any questions." Cop gets his superior, who comes to man and says "The officer who just spoke with you said he smells alcohol on your breath. Step out of the car." Guy is FORCED to comply with a breathalizer, otherwise his car gets impounded, (several thousand) and he gets a DUI (about $10,000 on average I have heard). The guy blows a .00 and gets the name and badge # of both officers, and makes formal complaint. (Of course nothing happened.)

The way of cops in America: If you think someone is doing something wrong, but don't have probably cause, lie and search them anyways. THIS is why I will open fire on anyone coming into my house without announcement, even if they look like cops. Sure they will get me, but that was going to happen anyways most likely. Might as well make them rethink how they do things, if they are getting more officers killed with no knock than properly announcing themselves....

[normiss 851]

This case is getting crazier.
I expect the city to get sued for millions, settle out of court, some cops get fired, some get re-trained and scolded on use of department computers....but ummm....why won't they be charged with murder???

Cops think his murder is funny

Family speaks

[Bertt 0]

Someone coming into your house is far different from cops stopping you while you are driving on a public road.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[normiss 851]

You cannot be forced into a breathalyzer.