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DaVinci 0
Of adding a terminal at the show is an issue then have the potential buyers go to the local Gun Shop during the week and bring in the approval form.
The first problem is that it is not a "loophole". Dealers are required by Federal Law to run a background check on anyone that wants to buy a gun.
What the anti's are calling a 'loophole' is how face to face transactions do not require a background check.
DaVinci 0
Gun shows aren't licensed sellers?
No, gun shows are not licensed dealers. Gun shows are organizations that offer up space for dealers and others to sell objects. Think of it as a flea market. The flea market is not the one selling you the velvet painting of the dogs playing poker, they only gather people with the paintings and try to attract people like you to show up and look around.
Show up with the approval form to make a purchase, or no sale.
Dealers are required to process every firearms sale through the NICS system (or similar).
What people are calling a 'loophole' is that I can sell you a gun without a background check (In most States). One of the major issues is that there is no way that I can run a NICS check on you... I would have to be a licensed dealer to use the NICS system.
Gun shows aren't licensed sellers?
No, gun shows are not licensed dealers. Gun shows are organizations that offer up space for dealers and others to sell objects. Think of it as a flea market. The flea market is not the one selling you the velvet painting of the dogs playing poker, they only gather people with the paintings and try to attract people like you to show up and look around.Show up with the approval form to make a purchase, or no sale.
Dealers are required to process every firearms sale through the NICS system (or similar).
What people are calling a 'loophole' is that I can sell you a gun without a background check (In most States). One of the major issues is that there is no way that I can run a NICS check on you... I would have to be a licensed dealer to use the NICS system.
Excuse me for not understanding this, but it seems to conflict.
Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!
So, start being safe, first!!!
Aren't most guns purchased on weekends? Of adding a terminal at the show is an issue then have the potential buyers go to the local Gun Shop during the week and bring in the approval form.
What he said. If NICS isn't staffed to handle weekend demand, that's a clear problem with it. While LEO may be able to do purchases on duty, I suspect most civilians slant their time at the gun store to after hours and more likely the weekend. And shows, of course, are weekend based.
Excuse me for not understanding this, but it seems to conflict.
In many states (not California), I can sell you a gun directly and there is no requirement to run a NICS type check or for you to pay any fees associated with this. If I want to get a table at a gun show in one of these states and sell, I can. If a dealer (FFL) gets a table at this show and sells, he has to run the NICS check on the buyer. This had lead to the claim that there is a "loophole."
It's not a meaningful one in the matter of where criminals are getting their guns, though. Nor is it for these sort of killers.
Excuse me for not understanding this, but it seems to conflict.
In many states (not California), I can sell you a gun directly and there is no requirement to run a NICS type check or for you to pay any fees associated with this. If I want to get a table at a gun show in one of these states and sell, I can. If a dealer (FFL) gets a table at this show and sells, he has to run the NICS check on the buyer. This had lead to the claim that there is a "loophole."
It's not a meaningful one in the matter of where criminals are getting their guns, though. Nor is it for these sort of killers.
Ah, that makes more sense to me now. Seems having the check system in place would eliminate potential illegal sales fro mus Private none licensed folks at least, seems reasonable.
Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!
So, start being safe, first!!!
DaVinci 0
Excuse me for not understanding this, but it seems to conflict.
I don't understand your question.... But I will try to clarify.
Gun show - This would be like a flea market.... Lets say you owned the land and held a flea market. Bob showed up and wanted to sell velvet Elvis paintings and I showed up to sell firearms.
YOU are not a firearms dealer, BOB is not a firearms dealer.
DEALERS are required to call in a NICS check. YOU and BOB are not dealers and therefore do not need to have a firearm license.
So I would have to call in any firearm sale I made.... Bob would not need to call anyone when he sold a painting. You have no duty to make any phone calls since you just provided the space.
What people call a 'loophole' is just Steve trying to sell Bob a firearm. He could make the sale all day everyday, but people call it a 'loophole' if it is done at a gunshow.
The ATF is pretty tough on anyone selling guns for profit without being a dealer. What people are calling a loophole is just personal face to face sales.
I hope that cleared things up.
muff528 3
Excuse me for not understanding this, but it seems to conflict.
I don't understand your question.... But I will try to clarify.
Gun show - This would be like a flea market.... Lets say you owned the land and held a flea market. Bob showed up and wanted to sell velvet Elvis paintings and I showed up to sell firearms.
YOU are not a firearms dealer, BOB is not a firearms dealer.
DEALERS are required to call in a NICS check. YOU and BOB are not dealers and therefore do not need to have a firearm license.
So I would have to call in any firearm sale I made.... Bob would not need to call anyone when he sold a painting. You have no duty to make any phone calls since you just provided the space.
What people call a 'loophole' is just Steve trying to sell Bob a firearm. He could make the sale all day everyday, but people call it a 'loophole' if it is done at a gunshow.
The ATF is pretty tough on anyone selling guns for profit without being a dealer. What people are calling a loophole is just personal face to face sales.
I hope that cleared things up.
Also, (if not prevented by any State Laws) the two parties involved in the face-to-face private sale must be residents of the same state. If not, the transaction must be brokered by a FFL dealer in the buyer's state and a background check must be conducted. I think the gun must be physically transferred to the dealer and then to the buyer.
Skyrad 0
You keep talking about getting rid of what you describe as Assault Weapons, (Lets for the sake of argument just talk about the AR-15 he allegedly used). He also had a shotgun and a Glock, without doubt out of the three aforementioned weapons the shotgun would have done the most damage at close range in a packed theatre, are you suggesting that shotguns are banned?
No.
Why? A shotgun at close range in a crowd will do massive damage to human targets. So why the decision on one type of firearm used in a massacre compared to another?
Where would YOU draw the line?
The lines are already drawn, some to tight as it is.
When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca
Lucius Annaeus Seneca
Fair enough.
So, where do YOU think the line should be?
wolfriverjoe 1,523
Excuse me for not understanding this, but it seems to conflict.
I don't understand your question.... But I will try to clarify.
Gun show - This would be like a flea market.... Lets say you owned the land and held a flea market. Bob showed up and wanted to sell velvet Elvis paintings and I showed up to sell firearms.
YOU are not a firearms dealer, BOB is not a firearms dealer.
DEALERS are required to call in a NICS check. YOU and BOB are not dealers and therefore do not need to have a firearm license.
So I would have to call in any firearm sale I made.... Bob would not need to call anyone when he sold a painting. You have no duty to make any phone calls since you just provided the space.
What people call a 'loophole' is just Steve trying to sell Bob a firearm. He could make the sale all day everyday, but people call it a 'loophole' if it is done at a gunshow.
The ATF is pretty tough on anyone selling guns for profit without being a dealer. What people are calling a loophole is just personal face to face sales.
I hope that cleared things up.
And to expand on that a bit more...
The vast majority of the gun sellers at gun shows are FFL holding dealers. Real gun dealers who are at the show because it brings far more customers past their wares than will walk into their store in a month.
Those licensed dealers are required to do all the necessary paperwork on every sale (regardless of if it occurs at their store, the gunshow, the range, anywhere).
And most gun sales at gunshows are through licensed dealers.
Anyone can rent a table and sell whatever they want - guns, knives, holsters, ammo, parts, tools, books, posters, T-shirts,and on and on (the shows often have rules on content being firearm related, usually a percentage).
The ones I go to have very few non-dealers selling guns. Some, but only a few.
DaVinci is absolutely correct that the ATF keeps their eyes open and if they suspect a person without a licesnse is selling a significant quantity of guns, they come down like the proverbial ton of bricks.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy
"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo
"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo
Excuse me for not understanding this, but it seems to conflict.
I don't understand your question.... But I will try to clarify.
Gun show - This would be like a flea market.... Lets say you owned the land and held a flea market. Bob showed up and wanted to sell velvet Elvis paintings and I showed up to sell firearms.
YOU are not a firearms dealer, BOB is not a firearms dealer.
DEALERS are required to call in a NICS check. YOU and BOB are not dealers and therefore do not need to have a firearm license.
So I would have to call in any firearm sale I made.... Bob would not need to call anyone when he sold a painting. You have no duty to make any phone calls since you just provided the space.
What people call a 'loophole' is just Steve trying to sell Bob a firearm. He could make the sale all day everyday, but people call it a 'loophole' if it is done at a gunshow.
The ATF is pretty tough on anyone selling guns for profit without being a dealer. What people are calling a loophole is just personal face to face sales.
I hope that cleared things up.
And to expand on that a bit more...
The vast majority of the gun sellers at gun shows are FFL holding dealers. Real gun dealers who are at the show because it brings far more customers past their wares than will walk into their store in a month.
Those licensed dealers are required to do all the necessary paperwork on every sale (regardless of if it occurs at their store, the gunshow, the range, anywhere).
And most gun sales at gunshows are through licensed dealers.
Anyone can rent a table and sell whatever they want - guns, knives, holsters, ammo, parts, tools, books, posters, T-shirts,and on and on (the shows often have rules on content being firearm related, usually a percentage).
The ones I go to have very few non-dealers selling guns. Some, but only a few.
DaVinci is absolutely correct that the ATF keeps their eyes open and if they suspect a person without a licesnse is selling a significant quantity of guns, they come down like the proverbial ton of bricks.
So, I am getting this Gun Show loop hole is a Straw Man?
And not a valid more regulation argument?
Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!
So, start being safe, first!!!
wolfriverjoe 1,523
So, I am getting this Gun Show loop hole is a Straw Man?
And not a valid more regulation argument?
Matt
Pretty much. The antis love to crow about the gun show loophole, but all it is is that private parties may sell guns to each other in most states.
Some of them do it at garage sales, some do it at the shooting range (my range has a "for sale" board that anyone can hang an ad on),
A gun show is just a place where a lot of people interested in guns show up. It's a good place for someone who wants to sell a gun.
Although the shows I go to don't allow people who don't pay to get in to sell guns outside the show.
Edit to fix a factual error.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy
"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo
"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo
So, I am getting this Gun Show loop hole is a Straw Man?
And not a valid more regulation argument?
Matt
Pretty much. The antis love to crow about the gun show loophole, but all it is is that private parties may sell guns to each other in most states.
Some of them do it at garage sales, some do it at the shooting range (my range has a "for sale" board that anyone can hang an ad on), some do it through Craigslist. Not any more, they stopped that a year or more back.
A gun show is just a place where a lot of people interested in guns show up. It's a good place for someone who wants to sell a gun.
Although the shows I go to don't allow people who don't pay to get in to sell guns outside the show.
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!
So, start being safe, first!!!
Skyrad 0
I see no reason why citizens without a criminal history or previous mental health issues shouldn't be allowed to own semi automatic rifles firing either centre-fire or rim-fire ammo. I also don't think that .50 Cal rifles should be banned. As for handguns in the USA well, CC permits should be awarded to those who have proven themselves proficient.
When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca
Lucius Annaeus Seneca
piisfish 140
wow, here we have a bright bulb...
Maine Man Brought Gun to ‘Dark Knight’
A man pulled over for speeding in Maine Sunday told police that he brought a loaded gun into a showing of The Dark Knight Rises Saturday night, just one day after the deadly shootings at a midnight screening of the Batman film in Colorado. An arsenal of weapons and press clippings about the Colorado massacre were found in the suspect’s car. Timothy Courtois, 49, was stopped by Maine State Police after speeding at 112 mph in his Ford Mustang. He told police he was on his way to Derry, New Hampshire, where he planned to shoot a former employer
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM
Skyrad 0
Bang him up and drag his arse through the courts. What a muppet.
When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca
Lucius Annaeus Seneca
YOU are not a firearms dealer, BOB is not a firearms dealer.
DEALERS are required to call in a NICS check. YOU and BOB are not dealers and therefore do not need to have a firearm license.
The ATF is pretty tough on anyone selling guns for profit without being a dealer. What people are calling a loophole is just personal face to face sales.
I hope that cleared things up.
Well, in the common sense of things, for many people once Bob has rented commercial space and is setting up a booth to sell guns, he is a firearms dealer. I assume that most people doing that are doing it because they think they will make a profit on it as well. I know common sense and government regulation don't go together all that well and that the gun show "loophole" may be way overblown as a point of contention, I am just trying to see it from the other side as well.
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"
DaVinci 0
So, I am getting this Gun Show loop hole is a Straw Man?
Pretty much. The antis like to harp on it since they think it makes gunshows out to be dangerous places.
There is no 'loophole'. It is simply you being allowed to sell your private property to another person.
ryoder 1,590
Let the idiotic lawsuits begin:
Brown's attorney plans to target three defendants -- the theater, doctors who the attorney says gave the shooting suspect several medications and the movie studio that made "The Dark Knight Rises."
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/31298006/detail.html
Brown's attorney plans to target three defendants -- the theater, doctors who the attorney says gave the shooting suspect several medications and the movie studio that made "The Dark Knight Rises."
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/31298006/detail.html
"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.
wow, here we have a bright bulb...
Maine Man Brought Gun to ‘Dark Knight’
A man pulled over for speeding in Maine Sunday told police that he brought a loaded gun into a showing of The Dark Knight Rises Saturday night, just one day after the deadly shootings at a midnight screening of the Batman film in Colorado. An arsenal of weapons and press clippings about the Colorado massacre were found in the suspect’s car. Timothy Courtois, 49, was stopped by Maine State Police after speeding at 112 mph in his Ford Mustang. He told police he was on his way to Derry, New Hampshire, where he planned to shoot a former employer
I had read a bit more - the guy he supposedly targeted was his boss of a company he voluntarily quit (though perhaps due to inadequate raise) in 2000. Which means he has been holding this grudge for 12 years and now suddenly is acting on it. Loonyness, lies, something else? Not sure what to make of it other than the guy is a fucking idiot.
DaVinci 0
Well, in the common sense of things, for many people once Bob has rented commercial space and is setting up a booth to sell guns, he is a firearms dealer.
If Bob has rented a space to sell guns, then he is by LAW a gun dealer and has to have an FFL and run every purchase through NICS (or similar).
I assume that most people doing that are doing it because they think they will make a profit on it as well.
If a person is trying to sell guns for a profit... Then they are by LAW a gun dealer and have to run every purchase through NICS (or similar).
The 'gun show loophole' is when Bob sets up a table at a gunshow to sell beef jerky and wants to sell his personal weapon he no longer needs. He is not in the business to sell that one gun, he is in the business to sell jerky and wants to sell his personal weapon since he knows a bunch of buyers will be there. It is NO different than him putting an ad in the local paper and selling his personal weapon to you at his house.
The anti's do not like the idea that you could sell your personal gun to me without a background check and government involvement. To them, that is a 'loophole'.
Again, if a guy sets up a table to sell guns.... He is a dealer and if he does not have a valid FFL, the ATF will drop on him like a ton of bricks. If he buys and sells guns to make a profit... He needs an FFL and if he does not have one, the ATF will drop onto him like a ton of bricks.
If he sells his personal weapon and makes a few bucks.... He is a private seller and does not need an FFL. If he does that frequently enough however, the ATF will ask him what he is doing.
I had a buddy that was liquidating his personal collection and sold several weapons over the course of a few weeks. He needed to sell the guns to buy something else and the ATF visited him to ask questions. They 'suggested' he get an FFL, but since he was just selling off his personal collection he didn't need to get one and didn't.
rhaig 0
It's all in the definition of "dealer". From what I've read on it (I looked into getting my C&R FFL a couple of years ago) selling part of your collection in order to make room for different guns or to use that money for buying firearms or other necessary purchases isn't considered "dealing" firearms. Of course if you move guns through your "collection" too quickly then the ATF becomes the aforementioned ton of bricks, calls your collection "stock" and busts you for dealing without a license.
So Bob might have a booth selling lots of things, and some of those things happen to be firearms, but they are not his primary wares. This is how I bought my first Mosin... from a guy selling leatherwork and backpacks. He had 3 mosins on the table. I bought one. (his name wasn't bob) Almost bought my first 1911 this way too. The guy was selling old books and knives and had a Colt Argentine on the table. Ended up buying from a dealer 2 tables down.
So Bob might have a booth selling lots of things, and some of those things happen to be firearms, but they are not his primary wares. This is how I bought my first Mosin... from a guy selling leatherwork and backpacks. He had 3 mosins on the table. I bought one. (his name wasn't bob) Almost bought my first 1911 this way too. The guy was selling old books and knives and had a Colt Argentine on the table. Ended up buying from a dealer 2 tables down.
--
Rob
Rob
Seems a reasonable form of control we could all live with.
And yes the CO incident would still be an issue.
Matt
So, start being safe, first!!!
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