ShcShc11 0 #1 July 31, 2012 Quote When our health care costs are completely out of control. Do you realize what health care spending is as a percentage of the GDP in Israel? 8 percent. You spend 8 percent of GDP on health care. And you’re a pretty healthy nation. We spend 18 percent of our GDP on health care. 10 percentage points more. That gap, that 10 percent cost, let me compare that with the size of our military. Our military budget is 4 percent. Our gap with Israel is 10 points of GDP. We have to find ways, not just to provide health care to more people, but to find ways to finally manage our health care costs. -Mitt Romney in Israel 30th July 2012 Mitt Romney summarizes my position on U.S health care quite well by going off-script (again) and accidentally telling the truth. People keep defending the old U.S health care system (and trying to repeal ACA) when the old system spends a whopping 16-18 percent of GDP to inefficient private insurance bureaucracy. Far higher costs, lower quality and many are not covered. Utter madness. Israel health care is a single-payer system with very intense government involvement (more so than Canada and Germany). The Israeli Gov sets a budget per capita and nonprofit plans are forced to set priorities for treatment and negotiate hard over provider payments. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/07/30/romney-praises-health-care-in-israel-where-strong-government-influence-has-driven-down-costs/ Cheers! Shc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davjohns 1 #2 July 31, 2012 I didn't realize our costs were that high as related to GDP. That's alarming.I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet.. But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sammer 0 #3 July 31, 2012 The cost numbers there are probably accurate but don't tell the whole story. You won't get very good quality of care with just the government mandated coverage in Israel. They have driven the costs down to where the doctors don't make any money, but that causes a whole new set of problems. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ShcShc11 0 #4 July 31, 2012 Quote The cost numbers there are probably accurate but don't tell the whole story. You won't get very good quality of care with just the government mandated coverage in Israel. They have driven the costs down to where the doctors don't make any money, but that causes a whole new set of problems. http://www.who.int/whr/2000/en/whr00_en.pdf World Health Organization ranked Israel 28th in health quality while the U.S ranked 37th. Israel's health care quality definitely matches the U.S (if not surpassing it). Cheers! Shc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davjohns 1 #5 July 31, 2012 Sounds like viable evidence. So, I continue to be concerned. I still maintain my vet is cheaper and more efficient than my doctors. I ran into one of my neighbors at the vet one day asking the vet to look at a wound to tell her if she needed stitches. I thought it was odd at the time. Now, I'm not so sure. She can see the vet in minutes. The doctor takes hours. The vet is low cost and in this case, might be no cost.I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet.. But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 210 #6 July 31, 2012 Quote Quote The cost numbers there are probably accurate but don't tell the whole story. You won't get very good quality of care with just the government mandated coverage in Israel. They have driven the costs down to where the doctors don't make any money, but that causes a whole new set of problems. http://www.who.int/whr/2000/en/whr00_en.pdf World Health Organization ranked Israel 28th in health quality while the U.S ranked 37th. Israel's health care quality definitely matches the U.S (if not surpassing it). Cheers! So let's see...Israel has a single payer system with alot of government involvement and all they can manage is 28th? Not exactly a strong endorsement . Are 13yo statistics all that are available?Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davjohns 1 #7 July 31, 2012 I'm not sure the OP was arguing the single payer issue. I took away that we are paying more for less. We can do better.I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet.. But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ShcShc11 0 #8 July 31, 2012 Quote I took away that we are paying more for less. We can do better. Thank you. That is exactly what I wanted to say. Quote So let's see...Israel has a single payer system with alot of government involvement and all they can manage is 28th? Not exactly a strong endorsement . Are 13yo statistics all that are available? Of course there are many more studies on health care- the point I wanted to use from the WHO report is that Israel quality isin't lacking behind U.S in spite of spending a lot less (in fact it can be argued that it has better quality). It is to refute the notion that "because we are paying more, there should automatically have more quality". This just isin't true. All Western countries pay substantially less for health care than the U.S (U.S is an outlier). France uses approx 9-11% GDP on Health Care while we the U.S are paying 18%. Whatever the case, this isin't about Israel vs U.S. Cheers! Shc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #9 July 31, 2012 Quote http://www.who.int/whr/2000/en/whr00_en.pdf World Health Organization ranked Israel 28th in health quality while the U.S ranked 37th. Israel's health care quality definitely matches the U.S (if not surpassing it). ugh...we've debated the value of these rankings so many times. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,067 #10 July 31, 2012 Quote Quote Quote The cost numbers there are probably accurate but don't tell the whole story. You won't get very good quality of care with just the government mandated coverage in Israel. They have driven the costs down to where the doctors don't make any money, but that causes a whole new set of problems. http://www.who.int/whr/2000/en/whr00_en.pdf World Health Organization ranked Israel 28th in health quality while the U.S ranked 37th. Israel's health care quality definitely matches the U.S (if not surpassing it). Cheers! So let's see...Israel has a single payer system with alot of government involvement and all they can manage is 28th? Not exactly a strong endorsement . Are 13yo statistics all that are available? Last time I checked, 28th was better than 37th. How many of the top 10 have "socialized" healthcare? (Answer, they ALL do). How many of the top 10 have a system like the USA? (Answer, NONE).... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sammer 0 #11 August 1, 2012 You will have a pretty rough time getting any care in Israel unless you have additional private insurance. I've experienced both systems and I can't figure out how you would even compare Israel's health care system to ours. The WHO rating baffles me. I've watched people incur weeks of lost work in Israel over something I would have been able to take care of in a day or two here in the US. We've also had 2 people we had to send to the US for care in the last year. Both were about to have limbs amputated due to infections they got in the hospitals there. Both are recovering in the US now with all of their limbs still attached. WHO is full of shit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,067 #12 August 1, 2012 QuoteYou will have a pretty rough time getting any care in Israel unless you have additional private insurance. I've experienced both systems and I can't figure out how you would even compare Israel's health care system to ours. The WHO rating baffles me. I've watched people incur weeks of lost work in Israel over something I would have been able to take care of in a day or two here in the US. We've also had 2 people we had to send to the US for care in the last year. Both were about to have limbs amputated due to infections they got in the hospitals there. Both are recovering in the US now with all of their limbs still attached. WHO is full of shit. 1. Anecdote <> data 2. People get mistreated and infected in US hospitals every day. MRSA is a big problem in US hospitals. 3. Don't confuse healthcare with medical care.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sammer 0 #13 August 1, 2012 It was their haste to start chopping off body parts that concerned me. I guess that's one way of keeping costs down though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,067 #14 August 1, 2012 QuoteIt was their haste to start chopping off body parts that concerned me. I guess that's one way of keeping costs down though. Hey, we have insurance company run death panels here!... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ShcShc11 0 #15 August 2, 2012 QuoteQuote http://www.who.int/whr/2000/en/whr00_en.pdf World Health Organization ranked Israel 28th in health quality while the U.S ranked 37th. Israel's health care quality definitely matches the U.S (if not surpassing it). ugh...we've debated the value of these rankings so many times. Empirical datas are far more important than stories of "someone I know". And I'm not sure how you can -at all- defend spending 18% of GDP on healthcare. Its amazing that people are SO concerned about ACA costs yet OK with spending 18% of GDP with the old system. Romney really summarized it well when he said: "even our military cost 4% of our GDP" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sammer 0 #16 August 2, 2012 QuoteEmpirical datas are far more important than stories of "someone I know". I don't know about that. If I had not experienced the health care systems in some of these foreign countries, I would not have realized that the WHO ranking is total bullshit and that it has nothing to do with "health care quality". A quick look at that report shows that it is using "fairness" (degree of socialization) and mortality rates. Considering that the US hasn't socialized it's health care system and is populated by unhealthy fatbodies, it's not hard to see why they would end up ranking low. I'm certainly not defending the US system but it does have the highest quality of care of any system I've experienced (if you can afford it). Also, I don't think anyone will ever find out what the true cost of health care in a socialist country is...especially not Israel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #17 August 2, 2012 QuoteA quick look at that report shows that it is using "fairness" (degree of socialization) and mortality rates. Considering that the US hasn't socialized it's health care system and is populated by unhealthy fatbodies, it's not hard to see why they would end up ranking low. Yes, if we ignore all of its bad attributes, the US healthcare system looks much better.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sammer 0 #18 August 2, 2012 ....and if you only look at the bad attributes you get bullshit "empirical datas". I think being a bunch of fatbodies is more of a cultural issue and not a reflection of health care. Dying in car wrecks often and killing each other are also not really related to health care, IMO. Advertizing that data as a meaningful measure of a nations health care is pretty misleading. I'm not here to defend US health care. There are plenty of legitimate issues with US health care. This just isn't one of them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #19 August 2, 2012 Quote....and if you only look at the bad attributes you get bullshit "empirical datas". I think being a bunch of fatbodies is more of a cultural issue and not a reflection of health care. Dying in car wrecks often and killing each other are also not really related to health care, IMO. Advertizing that data as a meaningful measure of a nations health care is pretty misleading. I'm not here to defend US health care. There are plenty of legitimate issues with US health care. This just isn't one of them. Health care is more than just medical care.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sammer 0 #20 August 2, 2012 QuoteHealth care is more than just medical care. Yeah I know. And I know the US system has some major shortcomings. I just think someone missed the mark here, that's all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ShcShc11 0 #21 August 2, 2012 Quote....and if you only look at the bad attributes you get bullshit "empirical datas". I think being a bunch of fatbodies is more of a cultural issue and not a reflection of health care. Dying in car wrecks often and killing each other are also not really related to health care, IMO. Advertizing that data as a meaningful measure of a nations health care is pretty misleading. I'm not here to defend US health care. There are plenty of legitimate issues with US health care. This just isn't one of them. The scale in the WHO is adjusted to include cultural variations. So if you have a country that has more "weight", they take into consideration of this in order to have more fairness. So no, it is not misleading. And there are other reports that indicate the same. http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Publications/Fund-Reports/2010/Jun/Mirror-Mirror-Update.aspx I can understand you had good experience, but the point of the debate is to find an objective truth. And even then, again, we are talking about a cost of 18% of GDP for the U.S. Quote Also, I don't think anyone will ever find out what the true cost of health care in a socialist country is... Except they know the cost. And its half of what the U.S is spending. Massachusetts spends substantially less as well. Cheers! Shc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sammer 0 #22 August 2, 2012 QuoteThe scale in the WHO is adjusted to include cultural variations. So if you have a country that has more "weight", they take into consideration of this in order to have more fairness. So no, it is not misleading. I'm in disagreement with you here. No where in that report is it documented that fatbodies are adjusted for. It does document in painful detail how the data was manipulated and weighted to make WHOs opinion of ideal the benchmark. From page 40 -Weighing the achievements that go into overall attainment:"...WHO conducted a survey of 1006 respondents from 125 countries, half from among its own staff...." It gets even more goofy when they explain annex table 10. You have to go find another report if you want to know how they calculate "maximum level of DALE achievable for observed expenditure per capita". Maybe that's where they hid the fatbody calculation. Even if you are right about the fatbodies, this is by WHO's own admission, only a measure of how closely each system fits their ideal. Even WHO doesn't advertized this ranking as "quality of health care", so I still maintain that doing so would be misleading. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #23 August 2, 2012 QuoteNo where in that report is it documented that fatbodies are adjusted for. Obesity is a symptom of a poor healthcare system. All else equal, a country with more obesity than another has an inferior healthcare system.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,031 #24 August 2, 2012 >Obesity is a symptom of a poor healthcare system. I think it's indicative of poor lifestyle choices. You, not your doctor, are the determining factor in what weight you are. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #25 August 2, 2012 QuoteQuoteNo where in that report is it documented that fatbodies are adjusted for. Obesity is a symptom of a poor healthcare system. All else equal, a country with more obesity than another has an inferior healthcare system. our choices don't stem from the health care system. It had nothing to do with 1) making us car centric - civil planning around freeways did 2) doesn't make up work more than any other nation 3) didn't make up wealthy enough to eat in excess - it might starve us 4) had nothing to do with the super sizing of meal portions 5) can't stop people from eating out most of the time. 6) stop parents from giving their kids an xbox instead of a basketball out in the scary outdoors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
