billvon 2,991 #26 August 10, 2012 >One of the safeguards that protects workers from the subset of companies who want > to pay their employees next to nothing is the minimum wage. Actually the best possible safeguard are people who refuse to work for below X dollars. (X depending on their circumstance.) Nothing else comes close. If you try to do that via a higher minimum wage, there will be more unpaid interns, fewer jobs overall, and more people being paid under the table. Result - more poverty. Personally I think that if a company wants to pay a teenager $2 an hour to sit in a chair in a parking lot and make sure no one steals any cars, they should be able to. He can listen to his Ipod, play Angry Birds and text his friends all day. That to me is a win-win situation. I'm not sure why people want to outlaw such things. >It makes good sense to adjust it for inflation. You recently said we don't understand its effects. If that is the case, it would be pretty stupid to change it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #27 August 10, 2012 Quote So would you like to see a temporary increase in the minimum wage until everyone gets back to "normal"? "temporary" that's cute ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #28 August 10, 2012 Quote>One of the safeguards that protects workers from the subset of companies who want > to pay their employees next to nothing is the minimum wage. Actually the best possible safeguard are people who refuse to work for below X dollars. (X depending on their circumstance.) Nothing else comes close. If you try to do that via a higher minimum wage, there will be more unpaid interns, fewer jobs overall, and more people being paid under the table. Result - more poverty. Personally I think that if a company wants to pay a teenager $2 an hour to sit in a chair in a parking lot and make sure no one steals any cars, they should be able to. He can listen to his Ipod, play Angry Birds and text his friends all day. That to me is a win-win situation. I'm not sure why people want to outlaw such things. It would be great if labor was sold in a fair, open market that allowed buyers and sellers to easily identify one another and negotiate from equal positions of power. That's not the world we live in though. Buyers of labor have a huge advantage in the market. Sometimes people have to take the jobs they can find while they look for something more appropriate. The minimum wage offers a minimal amount of protection to workers in such situations. Quote>It makes good sense to adjust it for inflation. You recently said we don't understand its effects. If that is the case, it would be pretty stupid to change it. Subsequently, I did more research, and found that the studies concluding that raising minimum wage had a negative effect on employment were subject to significant publication selection bias. In the minimum wage literature, the magnitude of the publication selection bias is as large or larger, on average, than the underlying reported estimate. Overall, correcting for publication bias would transform a modestly negative average elasticity to a small positive employment elasticity.So, apparently we understand the effects better than I thought. That those effects don't align with your pet political theories isn't my concern.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #29 August 10, 2012 >Sometimes people have to take the jobs they can find while they look for >something more appropriate. Great. We should let them do that, not try to legislate that their first job is more appropriate. Let's go back to my previous example. An 18 year old kid living at home with his parents. They tell him "get a job you lazy bum!" He reluctantly goes forth to find the easiest possible job he can find, one that won't interfere with his gaming, texting or phone conversations. What would be your idea of a minimum "living wage" for a kid living at home? >Subsequently, I did more research . . . . and lo and behold you found a study that supported your political beliefs! That's great. I've looked at about a dozen and I think they indicate that: -increasing minimum wages, in general, do not reduce poverty -increasing minimum wages, in general, reduce unemployment overall Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #30 August 10, 2012 QuoteBut the fact is, no matter how low the minimum wage is, there will always be somebody who wants to push it lower "to create jobs." It's bullshit. In the industry I work in, there are people willing to work for nothing and other people willing to take advantage of it. It's completely illegal, but goes on all the time. I think it's ridiculous, but the concept of the unpaid intern is entrenched. In this industry it happens a lot as well. They get past it with the school credit stuff, just like other industries. But the small franchise owned fast food shop had to make a decision. Slower service with less employees, to make ends meet. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #31 August 10, 2012 Quote>Sometimes people have to take the jobs they can find while they look for >something more appropriate. Great. We should let them do that, not try to legislate that their first job is more appropriate. No one is trying to legislate that their first job is appropriate. A minimum wage job rarely is. Quoteand lo and behold you found a study that supported your political beliefs! No. I found a couple meta-analyses of minimum wage studies that revealed significant publication selection bias in previous work analyzing the effect of minimum wage on employment. Further, the data did not support conclusions of minimum wage increases having a negative effect on employment. QuoteI've looked at about a dozen and I think they indicate that: -increasing minimum wages, in general, reduce unemployment overall That's consistent with the Doucouliagos & Stanley meta-analysis that I previously quoted, as well as work by Dube & Reich and Card & Krueger. What is wrong with reducing unemployment?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #32 August 10, 2012 Snce you started this topic... what is your opinion? Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveJonathan 0 #33 August 12, 2012 QuoteSnce you started this topic... what is your opinion? Chuck The minimum wage should be increased. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #34 August 12, 2012 QuoteQuoteSnce you started this topic... what is your opinion? Chuck The minimum wage should be increased. No! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 236 #35 August 12, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteSnce you started this topic... what is your opinion? Chuck The minimum wage should be increased. No! Chuck Why not? Simply mandate that every job pays at least $100 an hour and EVERYONE is happy! Workers have bunches of money, the tax base is sufficient to cover our expenses - what's the down side? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #36 August 12, 2012 Then businesses will relocate of their services overseas and that will give the leftists something to whine about. Funny how they like to complain about problems their policies create. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #37 August 12, 2012 Quote Quote Quote Quote Snce you started this topic... what is your opinion? Chuck The minimum wage should be increased. No! Chuck Why not? Simply mandate that every job pays at least $100 an hour and EVERYONE is happy! Workers have bunches of money, the tax base is sufficient to cover our expenses - what's the down side? For a hunnerd bucks an hour... I'll take one of those jobs! Then, I could afford health and dental insurance! Yeah, like that's gonna happen!Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #38 August 12, 2012 Except your health insurance will then cost $4000 per month. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 236 #39 August 12, 2012 QuoteExcept your health insurance will then cost $4000 per month. Don't sweat the details. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #40 August 12, 2012 Just another case of The Man keepin' us dowwwwwn! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #41 August 12, 2012 >Simply mandate that every job pays at least $100 an hour and EVERYONE is happy! Heck, everyone is rich! Everyone could work a few years then retire. Society would benefit immensely. No more poverty! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #42 August 12, 2012 Dam straight, now there's some change we can believe in. I propose the govt. keep 40% of every dollar it prints to pay for our healthcare, military etc. that way we can eliminate the IRS. or any other middlemen like accountants who skim off government money. Why is it necessary to earn money the government prints, only to have them take it back after it's earned? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveJonathan 0 #43 August 12, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteSnce you started this topic... what is your opinion? Chuck The minimum wage should be increased. No! Chuck Yes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #44 August 13, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteSnce you started this topic... what is your opinion? Chuck The minimum wage should be increased. No! Chuck Yes! Brrrraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaappp Wrong Answer!! Have you considered the 'small business' that is gradually growing. Help is needed but the business owner can't quite afford $12.00 -$25.00 an hr. He can get help at minnimum wage. As his business grows, he can afford raises and so it goes. The economy grows. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveJonathan 0 #45 August 13, 2012 Quote>Simply mandate that every job pays at least $100 an hour and EVERYONE is happy! Heck, everyone is rich! Everyone could work a few years then retire. Society would benefit immensely. No more poverty! The number currently in the frame is $10. So hardly likely to make many rich. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #46 August 13, 2012 The problem with minimum wages is that it doesn't guarantee that anybody will have a job at that wage. It just says that you can't have a job for less than that. It's a pretty fine distinction, but an important one. What it means ultimately is that if the work you do isn't worth that pay, your job will disappear or move elsewhere, where it can be done more cheaply. I'm not entirely sure that really helps anyone. If the cost of paying a worker more can be passed on to consumers, then a business will do so, and your dollar will buy less. If, on the other hand, people are unwilling to pay, say $20 for a basket of strawberries, instead, those strawberries will be imported from somewhere where they can be grown more cheaply than where a worker needs to be paid $10 an hour to pick them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #47 August 13, 2012 QuoteWhat it means ultimately is that if the work you do isn't worth that pay, your job will disappear or move elsewhere, where it can be done more cheaply. The data suggest that doesn't actually happen.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveJonathan 0 #48 August 13, 2012 QuoteThe problem with minimum wages is that it doesn't guarantee that anybody will have a job at that wage. It just says that you can't have a job for less than that. It's a pretty fine distinction, but an important one. What it means ultimately is that if the work you do isn't worth that pay, your job will disappear or move elsewhere, where it can be done more cheaply. I'm not entirely sure that really helps anyone. If the cost of paying a worker more can be passed on to consumers, then a business will do so, and your dollar will buy less. If, on the other hand, people are unwilling to pay, say $20 for a basket of strawberries, instead, those strawberries will be imported from somewhere where they can be grown more cheaply than where a worker needs to be paid $10 an hour to pick them. Studies have shown that an increase in the minimum wage doesn't lead to an increase in unemployment. So this would be a real 'trickle up' economic boost rather than a ficticious 'trickle down'. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #49 August 13, 2012 >What it means ultimately is that if the work you do isn't worth that pay, your job will >disappear or move elsewhere, where it can be done more cheaply. I'm not entirely >sure that really helps anyone. Well, it certainly helps the people in the place the job moves to. If you can get three people in an Indian call center for the price of one person in the US it becomes an easy decision for a cash-strapped business - and a very good deal for the people in New Delhi that are hired. (Of course, the person who is let go in the US may not agree.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #50 August 13, 2012 QuoteThen businesses will relocate of their services overseas and that will give the leftists something to whine about. Funny how they like to complain about problems their policies create. Surely those worthy, wealthy "JOB CREATORS" wouldn't stoop to be job destroyers. (Oh yes, they certainly would. Then they stash their extra cash in the Cayman Islands.)... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
