Drills before Downsizing

[EricaH 0]

In a different thread about downsizing someone posted the USAP canopy proficiency card attached.

On the first page of canopy discovery skills there are quite a few that have the canopy in a stall or near one. This in addition to the "The Stall" article on the home page has me wondering.

At some point I was under the impression that, on a modern (zp) parachute especially one that's not square or that is any type of elliptical, it's not safe to fully stall the canopy. That a stall may induce severe line twists or a line over or other things.

I do KNOW you shouldn't stall your canopy or really anything for that matter below your decision altitude.

I'm looking for opinions on flight further up, say bottom at 4k stalling or nearly stalling a modern zp semi to fully elliptical canopy?

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[phoenixlpr 0]

Why do you wanna have a full stall?

You should know the simptoms of stall to avoid full stall.

So why do you want to full stall a full zp/elliptical canopy?

[riggerrob 643]

When stalling any canopy, the key is to sneak up on the stall point, like a professional test pilot gradually working his way towards the edges of the envelope.
If it takes you a dozen jumps to find the stall point, cool!Similarly, student pilots (in the USA) are taught to recognize the symptoms of incipient stalls ... not quite full stalls ... more like mushing with the ailerons going soft ... little wind noise, etc.

[peek 21]

For a presentation at a PIA Symposium I took a highly loaded Stiletto (as the first canopy of 3 on a cutaway rig) and packed it in a number of outrageous ways to see if it ever opened in an unrecoverable turn, and then did full stalls once open to see if it could ever get into an unrecoverable turn.

In my case I could not get it in an unrecoverable turn, although with practice I think it could be made to do that. And this was with the canopy bent up into a "U" shape and flopping all over the place.

The point being that you should not fear approaching a stall, because it is going to have to be a fairly radical one to get you into trouble.

As Rob's post explains, work it right on the edge so you know what it feels like. (If your "D" lines are not slack you are not even close.)

Brian's article mentions some alarming things during a stall that would worry a lot of people, but I don't think many people would ever experience them beause most people would stop long before the point that their canopy would do them.

[Reginald 0]

Part of Scott Miller’s course is spending a jump stalling a canopy both with rear risers and with toggles. There is nothing dangerous about it as long as it is done above your hard deck. The worst I’ve ever heard of is a line twist or two, nothing an experienced skydiver should fear. Scott said in all his years of teaching the course he has only had a couple of people manage to induce line twists, so it is reasonably uncommon.

The point of doing it is to know where the stall point of your canopy is! Once a person is comfortable that they know where it is and what a canopy feels like before it stalls they can then feel comfortable flying in deep brakes or on rear risers, both of which have a lot of practical application.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[EricaH 0]

I understand the value of learning deep break flight both on toggles & rears and have practiced both. That type of flight is both fun & a bit scary
I had heard around (here & the dz, home & away) that it's unsafe to fully stall. Thus my question with the conflict between the article & the proficency card against what I thought was common knowledge.

Good to know that (*above hard deck) stalls will not create an unrecoverable circumstance nor are they dangerous. And good to know that both in Brian's article & the card are talking about NEAR stall flight.

Yes, parts of his article really did scare the conservative canopy pilot in me!

I know there are no absolutes, however looking at these statements as though un-schooled, things do look final.

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[bob.dino 1]

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Part of Scott Miller’s course is spending a jump stalling a canopy both with rear risers and with toggles ... Scott said in all his years of teaching the course he has only had a couple of people manage to induce line twists, so it is reasonably uncommon.

However, he also advises those folk jumping elliptical canopies not to perform toggle stalls.

[mjosparky 4]

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I had heard around (here & the dz, home & away) that it's unsafe to fully stall......
what I thought was common knowledge.

Next time someone with this "common knowledge" tells you stalls are unsafe ask them to explain to you why and have they ever tried them.

Wrong information repeated over and over has a way of become fact or urban legend.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[EricaH 0]

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Wrong information repeated over and over has a way of become fact or urban legend.

That is so true!! But then you have this:

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However, he also advises those folk jumping elliptical canopies not to perform toggle stalls.

It's hard to sort through to the truth & from the legend.

Other than hearing situations directly from people with crazy amounts of canopy time - not just a few here or there and other than just going for it, there's almost no way to tell. Well, I guess if I went & studied aeronotical engineering it might help, but I can't even spell it correctly.

I've been thinking of downsizing for sometime now - but there are a few blocks to me, this being one of them. I watched a friend stall & then quickly turn his canopy @ approx 1000' & then spin into the ground... stalling scares me & I wonder if I have the right to be scared or should I just respect the danger of the situation?

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[NWFlyer 2]

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It's hard to sort through to the truth & from the legend.

Scott posts on here as FOF ... you could try sending him a PM and asking him directly. I can't recall what he said about ellipticals when I took his class (none of the people in the class were jumping one, so it may not have come up, or I may not be remembering it).

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[billvon 2,997]

>I had heard around (here & the dz, home & away) that it's unsafe to fully stall.

Depends on your training and gear. If you know how to stall and recover a canopy, there is almost zero risk in stalling a Sabre 150 loaded at 1.1 to 1. If you don't know how to recover, you are at least going to scare yourself if you stall a Katana loaded at 2:1 - and may well induce a malfunction.

[mjosparky 4]

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I've been thinking of downsizing for sometime now -

Why? The most important question to answer before downsizing.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Reginald 0]

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However, he also advises those folk jumping elliptical canopies not to perform toggle stalls.

Hmm, I don't recall that and we did have some people that jump smaller elipticals. However, I don't so i may not recall it as it was not pertinent to me.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[HeatherB 0]

When I took Scott's class a long time ago, he had a few people with ellipticals switch to more docile loaners for the stall practices. One had a Samurai, one had a Stiletto, I think there was a Velocity too.

I scared myself on my first stall by letting the toggles back up too quickly. I'm guessing if you do that on a more aggressive canopy, it would get even uglier.

But after that first stall I did a few more and loved 'em.

See ya this weekend? We're training.

[EricaH 0]

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I scared myself on my first stall by letting the toggles back up too quickly. I'm guessing if you do that on a more aggressive canopy, it would get even uglier

EEK!!
This is really intersting! It's great to hear real-life experiences.

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Why? The most important question to answer before downsizing

And that's the 2nd block against my downsizing (fear of the ground and no real reason).

I've jumped a Spectre @ approx 1.38 for the last 450 jumps & want some sort of change - unfortunately I pretty sure a 9 cell 150 won't fit in my container (it's pretty ugly w/ an older Spectre & don't get me started on Mirage's customer service). I guess really the easiest way (well least expensive anyway) is to lose 15lbs & then buy a 135... in the meantime I investigate downsizing issues/concerns is my hobby.

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[jheadley 0]

When you stall, let your toggles back up slowly and evenly, that's the key. It's harder to do that you think since when your canopy collapses your first instinctive reaction is to let the toggles back up immediately. This is a good example of how NOT to recover from a stall.

http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=3454&string=stall

[mjosparky 4]

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I've jumped a Spectre @ approx 1.38 for the last 450 jumps & want some sort of change

Start a new trend, go bigger.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals