Top 10% provide 70% of federal income.

[kallend 2,027]

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> It was socialistic BS.

Don't you enjoy the socialist entitlement programs that you benefit from?

>The redistribution of wealth will kill the spirit of the populace.

Are you still participating in it?

You all seem to overlook the fact that Social Security and Medicare require a work history for a minimum number of quarters.

Welfare, food stamps and Obamaphone only requires an application.

Work history is a key concept.

SOCIALIST!

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[RonD1120 62]

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>You all seem to overlook the fact that Social Security and Medicare require a
>work history for a minimum number of quarters.

Ah. So you feel you are entitled to your socialist benefits.

No, I am entitled to my return on investment based on the profit motive. It is a different economic system. I worked to earn more money than I needed so some was invested in a government sponsored savings account.

I don't understand why you lefties can't grab onto that concept.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[billvon 2,998]

>I am entitled to my return . . . .

Yep. A great many people have your sense of entitlement. They are entitled to their social security after all the work they did. They are entitled to their medicare after all they did for their country. They are entitled to their food stamps after all the work they did raising their children on their own. They are entitled to their unemployment after working for months at a job they hated.

I don't know why you right wingers can't accept that other people want the same socialist programs that you demand.

[kelpdiver 2]

insurance plans are not socialist.

The redistribution of SS premiums from higher earners to lower ones is socialist, but someone in the giving side isn't even getting back what they gave.

[funjumper101 15]

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> It was socialistic BS.

Don't you enjoy the socialist entitlement programs that you benefit from?

>The redistribution of wealth will kill the spirit of the populace.

Are you still participating in it?

You all seem to overlook the fact that Social Security and Medicare require a work history for a minimum number of quarters.

Welfare, food stamps and Obamaphone only requires an application.

Work history is a key concept.

Your ignorance of the history of Social Security and Medicare is showing.
The conservatives of the time, as well as the current crop of conservatives, despise the programs as fundamentally socialist. They are fundamentally socialist. They are a redistribution of wealth. You are personally benefitting from that which you claim to be against. Choosing to look the other way when socialist programs works to your personal benefit is hypocrisy of the highest order. Either you are adamantly opposed to such programs, or you aren't. As you have chosen to partake, you are a practicing Socialist, with a capital S. Deal with it. You aren't going to get away with that level of hypocrisy in this forum. I will call you on it each and every time.

You have no clue as to what it takes to get Welfare and/or food stamps. NONE. A single application does not get rubber stamped and approved. The wait times are long. The documentation required is difficult. It is a right wing canard that welfare and food stamps are easy to get.
Lies, when told over and over to people who are likely to believe them, are still lies.

[gregpso 1]

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The rich pay the vast majority of all income tax.

As they should, because they have the vast majority of the nation's wealth.

Top 10 per cent owe 90 per cent of the wealth. You cannot tell that is right and to cut there taxes even more. OBAMA wins easily !!

I tend to be a bit different. enjoyed my time in the sport or is it an industry these days ??

[RonD1120 62]

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You have no clue as to what it takes to get Welfare and/or food stamps. NONE. A single application does not get rubber stamped and approved. The wait times are long. The documentation required is difficult. It is a right wing canard that welfare and food stamps are easy to get.
Lies, when told over and over to people who are likely to believe them, are still lies.

The clients I had as a social services worker did not have trouble receiving food stamps, medicaid, or SSI. The reason was the programs are operated for a profit even though they are licensed as non-profit organizations. Therefore, the programs need clients and the way to get them enrolled is to facilitate their benefits. That is one of the main reasons I am adamant in my opposition to liberal social service programs. They operate with a high level of fraudulent activity skillfully hidden in copious record keeping. Paper work has priority over people. Professional skill is based on the ability to hide.

I know a lot about social services.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[kallend 2,027]

You claim to be against socialism but reap the benefits of it. There's a word for people like you, but if I used it I'd be making a PA.

However, everyone knows what it is.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,998]

>That is one of the main reasons I am adamant in my opposition to liberal social service programs.

Except, apparently, the ones that benefit you.

Nothing new here. For the past 200-odd years people have shouted "KEEP YOUR GOVERNMENT HANDS OUT OF MY WALLET! unless the money goes to me."

[champu 1]

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You are personally benefitting from that which you claim to be against. Choosing to look the other way when socialist programs works to your personal benefit is hypocrisy of the highest order. Either you are adamantly opposed to such programs, or you aren't. As you have chosen to partake, you are a practicing Socialist, with a capital S. Deal with it. You aren't going to get away with that level of hypocrisy in this forum. I will call you on it each and every time.

I can't speak for RonD, but as a 30 year old who's been paying the SS cap for a while now I have to laugh at your suggestion that Social Security benefits me. I also laugh at your suggestion that anyone "chooses to partake."

I'm not against social security because it's socialist (ooooh... scary.....) I'm against it because it is an intellectually bankrupt and fundamentally flawed system that is doomed to failure.

[kallend 2,027]

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You are personally benefitting from that which you claim to be against. Choosing to look the other way when socialist programs works to your personal benefit is hypocrisy of the highest order. Either you are adamantly opposed to such programs, or you aren't. As you have chosen to partake, you are a practicing Socialist, with a capital S. Deal with it. You aren't going to get away with that level of hypocrisy in this forum. I will call you on it each and every time.

I can't speak for RonD, but as a 30 year old who's been paying the SS cap for a while now I have to laugh at your suggestion that Social Security benefits me. I also laugh at your suggestion that anyone "chooses to partake."

.

You can certainly choose not to accept the money if the system violates your conscience. Rather like a woman can choose not to have an abortion.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[champu 1]

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You are personally benefitting from that which you claim to be against. Choosing to look the other way when socialist programs works to your personal benefit is hypocrisy of the highest order. Either you are adamantly opposed to such programs, or you aren't. As you have chosen to partake, you are a practicing Socialist, with a capital S. Deal with it. You aren't going to get away with that level of hypocrisy in this forum. I will call you on it each and every time.

I can't speak for RonD, but as a 30 year old who's been paying the SS cap for a while now I have to laugh at your suggestion that Social Security benefits me. I also laugh at your suggestion that anyone "chooses to partake."

.

You can certainly choose not to accept the money if the system violates your conscience. Rather like a woman can choose not to have an abortion.

Tell you what... If, when the time comes, I'm given the choice to accept any money (which is a really big "if") I promise to stop accepting money once they've given me back what I've paid in. They can even keep the interest (pretending for a moment that there ever was interest.) I have a letter/statement from them that tells me not to expect even that.

[billvon 2,998]

> Let there be the option not to pay into the system and we wont use it and 'reap the benefits'

You could indeed do that. That would be the end of Social Security as we know it, and perhaps it's time to consider that. People like Ron would be very, very upset though, because they feel they are entitled to that check.

[davjohns 1]

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>You all seem to overlook the fact that Social Security and Medicare require a
>work history for a minimum number of quarters.

Ah. So you feel you are entitled to your socialist benefits.

Actually, this is not a true statement. SSI and Medicaid are available to anyone...including illegal aliens.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[kelpdiver 2]

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> Let there be the option not to pay into the system and we wont use it and 'reap the benefits'

You could indeed do that. That would be the end of Social Security as we know it, and perhaps it's time to consider that. People like Ron would be very, very upset though, because they feel they are entitled to that check.

We could stop the circular debate here if you and Kallend would just acknowledge that SS is not a benefit to most of us having this conversation. All of us would be better off keeping that 12k/year and buying a decent LT disability plan instead (or relying on the one work provides).

You could have made the argument with Medicare, but SS - that's just a mandatory negative savings account with a marginal insurance component. Taking the money isn't socialist or entitled, it's making the best of a shitty investment. No one is going to take a total loss over a tax favored loss.

[RonD1120 62]

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>You all seem to overlook the fact that Social Security and Medicare require a
>work history for a minimum number of quarters.

Ah. So you feel you are entitled to your socialist benefits.

Actually, this is not a true statement. SSI and Medicaid are available to anyone...including illegal aliens.

That is what is so frustrating to me. These guys are not able to distinguish the difference between SS and Medicare vs. SSI and Medicaid.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 62]

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We could stop the circular debate here if you and Kallend would just acknowledge that SS is not a benefit to most of us having this conversation. All of us would be better off keeping that 12k/year and buying a decent LT disability plan instead (or relying on the one work provides).

You could have made the argument with Medicare, but SS - that's just a mandatory negative savings account with a marginal insurance component. Taking the money isn't socialist or entitled, it's making the best of a shitty investment. No one is going to take a total loss over a tax favored loss.

Thank you, someone else who gets it.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 62]

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You claim to be against socialism but reap the benefits of it. There's a word for people like you, but if I used it I'd be making a PA.

However, everyone knows what it is.

Definition of SOCIALIST

1: one who advocates or practices socialism
2 capitalized : a member of a party or political group advocating socialism

I do not fit the definition.

Back in the mid 80's I attempted to obtain exemption from FICA and SS, since I was embarking on my ministry missionary work. I was denied the option. The only way a minister can opt out is if they are a member of a church organization that provides a retirement plan. I was not such a member.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[wmw999 2,452]

Actually I don't believe either SSI or Medicaid is available to illegal aliens. They weren't in the 1970's when I worked "in the industry", and I'm pretty sure that was strengthened in the 1996 welfare reform.

If fact, an illegal alien who has paid for years into Social Security isn't eligible to receive the SS income from money he actually paid into the system -- other people do.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Southern_Man 0]

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The only way a minister can opt out is if they are a member of a church organization that provides a retirement plan. I was not such a member.

This is not correct information. As long as you are opposed to the socialistic programs based on religious principles you can opt out. Here is the ministerial exception for Social Security: http://www.crown.org/Library/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=690

Here is the relevant statment that you have to affirm:

I certify that I am conscientiously opposed to, or because of my religious principles I am opposed to, the acceptance (for services I perform as a minister, member of religious order not under a vow of poverty, or a Christian Science practitioner) of any public insurance that makes payments in the event of death, disability, old age, or retirement; or that, makes payments toward the cost of, or provides services for, medical care. (Public insurance includes insurance systems established by the Social Security Act.)…Under penalties of perjury, I declare that I have examined this application and to the best of my knowledge and belief it is true and correct.



Seems like it should have been right up Ron's alley.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[RonD1120 62]

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The only way a minister can opt out is if they are a member of a church organization that provides a retirement plan. I was not such a member.

This is not correct information. As long as you are opposed to the socialistic programs based on religious principles you can opt out. Here is the ministerial exception for Social Security: http://www.crown.org/Library/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=690

Here is the relevant statment that you have to affirm:

I certify that I am conscientiously opposed to, or because of my religious principles I am opposed to, the acceptance (for services I perform as a minister, member of religious order not under a vow of poverty, or a Christian Science practitioner) of any public insurance that makes payments in the event of death, disability, old age, or retirement; or that, makes payments toward the cost of, or provides services for, medical care. (Public insurance includes insurance systems established by the Social Security Act.)…Under penalties of perjury, I declare that I have examined this application and to the best of my knowledge and belief it is true and correct.



Seems like it should have been right up Ron's alley.

That is not the way it was explained to me c.1985.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[tkhayes 348]

A portion of all wealth is collective, but not all of it. Bill Gates got rich 'on his own', but he did not write all the code in all his products. WORKERS wrote the code. He helped to build the company and it was his idea. MANY MANY others helped him achieve that wealth. There is no magic number of what is collective and what is 'earned individually'.

85% of the country's wealth is held by 20% of the people. I would hope that AT LEAST 85% of the federal income is paid for by those 20% of the people.

And BTW EVERYONE should be paying some level of taxes, federally as well as whatever other taxes are out there.

[Southern_Man 0]

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That is not the way it was explained to me c.1985.

Don't know who explained it to you but they apparently did you a real disservice, as that is right from the IRS forms. Those standards have not changed since 1985 either (the exemption has essentially bee in place since 1968, previously all ministers were exempted except for those who opted in).

While we are at it, being a minister is a way to get very favorable tax treatment overall. Maybe not hedge fund manager favorable but much much better than most middle class folks who work for a living.

Here are some of the tax advantages:

1. Exempt yourself from Social Security and Medicare taxes, as explained above. This is a very good idea because ministers are considered self-employed for Social security purposes, even though they are employees for income tax purposes.

2. Have a huge portion of your salary listed as "housing allowance." This means it is exempt from income tax. All your mortgage, utilities, maintenance, etc. can be paid for tax free. Want to buy new furniture? yup, tax free. Want to build an addition? yup, you can do that with tax-free money. As long as your salary agreement lists it as housing allowance than you can do it. There are a few limitations but they are pretty generous.

3. You would think that paying for your house will all tax free money that you wouldn't be able to tax a mortgage interest deduction, but you would be wrong. Ministers can then deduct what they paid in mortgage interest from the portion of their salary that is taxable. So, you aren't just getting to pay your mortgage tax-free, you are getting a refund on some of your interest.

4. Use appropriate retirement vehicles such as a Rabbi trust, to shield more income from the government.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[RonD1120 62]

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That is not the way it was explained to me c.1985.

Don't know who explained it to you but they apparently did you a real disservice, as that is right from the IRS forms. Those standards have not changed since 1985 either (the exemption has essentially bee in place since 1968, previously all ministers were exempted except for those who opted in).

While we are at it, being a minister is a way to get very favorable tax treatment overall. Maybe not hedge fund manager favorable but much much better than most middle class folks who work for a living.

Here are some of the tax advantages:

1. Exempt yourself from Social Security and Medicare taxes, as explained above. This is a very good idea because ministers are considered self-employed for Social security purposes, even though they are employees for income tax purposes.

2. Have a huge portion of your salary listed as "housing allowance." This means it is exempt from income tax. All your mortgage, utilities, maintenance, etc. can be paid for tax free. Want to buy new furniture? yup, tax free. Want to build an addition? yup, you can do that with tax-free money. As long as your salary agreement lists it as housing allowance than you can do it. There are a few limitations but they are pretty generous.

3. You would think that paying for your house will all tax free money that you wouldn't be able to tax a mortgage interest deduction, but you would be wrong. Ministers can then deduct what they paid in mortgage interest from the portion of their salary that is taxable. So, you aren't just getting to pay your mortgage tax-free, you are getting a refund on some of your interest.

4. Use appropriate retirement vehicles such as a Rabbi trust, to shield more income from the government.

I just spoke to a SSA representative.

It is too late for me now, age 70. I was never salaried as a minister. I have always been an independent servant for the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[lawrocket 3]

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WORKERS wrote the code. He helped to build the company and it was his idea. MANY MANY others helped him achieve that wealth.

Yes. And he paid them all for it. I'm sure that Bill Gates paid far more in payroll to others than he himself is worth.

My wife is hotter than your wife.