What a classic Christian conservative upbringing can do to the mentally unstable.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/newtown-massacre-bushmaster-223/story?id=18000884#.UNABn7bA_Og

.223 is plenty 'high power'. That is why it is the choice of the US military for the most part. light weight, accurate, 3000fps for the most part - which part of 'high power' is not being expressed here?

Your comparison to .308 or whatever is moot. they are all 'high power' and your definition is not really relevant to the argument.

No ban on assault rifles because they don't get used in massacres? This is a high power, high capacity assault rifle. Yes there are 'higher' power and 'higher' capacity, but will the right clips, purchased almost anywhere, this thing can knock off 100+ rounds, 20 children and 7 staff members in record time. already proven.

Another thing

The AP reported yesterday that mass killings in the US are down (since the 1900's)

Does not play well with the number of scarry black rifles that have been sold in the US the last 10 year.

If your side arguments had any releanance, mass killings would be up since there are more rifles

And this still does not the biggest mass murder of school children in US history (and this fact is NOT being used to diminish the horror and tragety of this act)

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[tkhayes 348]

And you will continue to dig in your heels, and your will volley for ABSOLUTELY no change, and you will be standing there with your jaw hanging when you lose he argument and they DO in fact take it all away from you.

The guns are a problem, they are part of the problem. The number of guns, the types of guns, the people who have them, why they have them, who can get them and how they get them. It is ALL part of the problem.

And you will dig in, and they may very well pry your gun from your cold dead hands. Or you can actually lobby for some changes and make the country safer.

And I'll let you in on a hint.... another 100M guns out there will not actually help solve the problem.

[tkhayes 348]

http://www.cbc.ca/thesundayedition/essays/2012/12/16/essay-for-dec-16/

a well rounded description of the American psyche

[tkhayes 348]

http://www.bushmaster.com/faqs/afmmain.aspx?faqid=1737 Instructions from the manufacturer on how to obtain a full auto version or conversion.

I do not see those similar instructions on full auto conversions for the Browning BAR...... oh wait...... there is one in Class 3 configuration....

http://www.gunsamerica.com/977798425/BROWNING+BAR+Full+Auto+Class+3+CR.htm

and whaddya know? It's an assault rifle!

[rushmc 23]

Quote

And you will continue to dig in your heels, and your will volley for ABSOLUTELY no change, and you will be standing there with your jaw hanging when you lose he argument and they DO in fact take it all away from you.

The guns are a problem, they are part of the problem. The number of guns, the types of guns, the people who have them, why they have them, who can get them and how they get them. It is ALL part of the problem.

And you will dig in, and they may very well pry your gun from your cold dead hands. Or you can actually lobby for some changes and make the country safer.

And I'll let you in on a hint.... another 100M guns out there will not actually help solve the problem.

I am for something that makes sense

But the emotional knee jerk "solutions" the banners want lack any sense at all

A link I posted for kallend shows prosecutions under the Obama admin for gun issues is down 40% from the Bush admin. Why? (I think this fact and Fast and Furious are related but that is another thread)

AP also posted yesterday that these types of crimes are down in the 2000's.

Guns can be used for evil. Guns can be used for good. This kid had evil in his heart and no soul. Add that to his mental issues (which those like you and the media like to ignore) and the we get what you post. Someone totally ignoring the real problem

As for your hint, another 100M guns did not add to the problem. So conversely, taking them away will not help

Another thing, this kid committed 3 felonies before he went to the school

In your world, one of those laws should have stopped his mass killings too?

So, it is easy to debunk your failed assertions here

When you calm down and think (instead of feel) and let go of an anti-constitution, anti-gun ideology, we may get a chance at a rational debate

Until then my friend

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

Quote

http://www.bushmaster.com/faqs/afmmain.aspx?faqid=1737 Instructions from the manufacturer on how to obtain a full auto version or conversion.

I do not see those similar instructions on full auto conversions for the Browning BAR...... oh wait...... there is one in Class 3 configuration....

http://www.gunsamerica.com/977798425/BROWNING+BAR+Full+Auto+Class+3+CR.htm

and whaddya know? It's an assault rifle!

Of course there are full auto versions
But guess what, that is NOT what this kid had and for most of us not willing to kick out the BIG bucks (and those of us who follow the law) we dont have them either

And now as least YOU get it

The Browning sport version of the BAR is not scarry. It was NOT included in the first failed so called assult weapons ban

So what you took the time to look up demostrates why an assult weapons ban is stupid

Most sport rifles are much more accurate that the Bushmaster this kid used

I built one for accuracy chambered for the 6.5 Grendel round

Much more accurate and much more powerful

But guess what, you can get a .223/5.56 or the 6.5 I have in rifles like the Browning you looked up.

And because that rifle is not scarry looking, the ban will not include it

These are the Browning I am talking about

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Browning-BAR-Semi-Auto-Rifles.cfm?cat_id=269

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[tkhayes 348]

Quote

I am for something that makes sense

I am too. name something.

Quote

But the emotional knee jerk "solutions" the banners want lack any sense at all

Because being emotional has nothing to do with the issue right? I mean why should I be emotional when my child is shot to death and it destroys the lives of an extended family and costs society hundreds of thousands of dollars each in societal cost. Sure, emotion should never enter into it. We all should be robots.

Quote

A link I posted for kallend shows prosecutions under the Obama admin for gun issues is down 40% from the Bush admin. Why? (I think this fact and Fast and Furious are related but that is another thread)

Governments are broke right? Everyone wants smaller govt and cuts in spending. We have seen local police affected by budget cuts all the way down to the local level here in FL. You want more prosecutions and more 'following the law'? Then get ready for bigger govt, more police, more prisons, more spending.

Quote

AP also posted yesterday that these types of crimes are down in the 2000's.

Only partly relevant. Society is clearly demonstrating that we are fed up and want change, the stats may not matter anymore BECAUSE emotion does matter eventually. and we are not actually changing anything so people want something to change.

Quote

Guns can be used for evil. Guns can be used for good. This kid had evil in his heart and no soul. Add that to his mental issues (which those like you and the media like to ignore) and the we get what you post. Someone totally ignoring the real problem

We ignore the real problem all the time. We fought a trillion dollar war in Iraq that had no purpose and now we are floundering in another one in Afghanistan. The 'kid' was likely a law abiding citizen exercising gun rights until he shot his Mom.

Quote

As for your hint, another 100M guns did not add to the problem. So conversely, taking them away will not help

Australia's latest experiment seems to contradict that.

Quote

Another thing, this kid committed 3 felonies before he went to the school

In your world, one of those laws should have stopped his mass killings too?

So, it is easy to debunk your failed assertions here

And as I said, up to that point, he was a law abiding citizen. If they did not have a house full of guns, he might have just killed his Mom with a knife, but I doubt that he would have gotten into a school or gotten very far with just a knife, or a baseball bat, or a chain saw.

Quote

When you calm down and think (instead of feel) and let go of an anti-constitution, anti-gun ideology, we may get a chance at a rational debate

We will CHANGE the laws and likely the Constitution. You will participate or likely lose many of the rights you hold so dear. I'm in a battle to save Skydive City because of security fence that WILL be built. It's a fact. The rationale is not there at all. They are going to build a fence. It makes no sense. They are going to do it anyway.

And they are going to change your laws. You can participate and pretend that you case, or you can sit back and watch it come down around you.

We choose to participate.

Quote

Until then my friend

all good points, but society is fed up.

[rushmc 23]

I think you have wishful thinking

Even an on line ABC polls today shows no stomach for changing gun laws

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[tkhayes 348]

that's a sad commentary of the intelligence of the American people.

If nothing changes, then nothing will change. The cost to society is immense, quite possibly staggering.

http://archive.news.iastate.edu/news/2010/sep/costofcrime

Ever wonder why the country is broke?

If nothing changes, then nothing will change.

that is for sure.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Can you tell me when the last killing spree was in which the shooter used a fully automatic assault weapon?

[rushmc 23]

Quote

that's a sad commentary of the intelligence of the American people.

If nothing changes, then nothing will change. The cost to society is immense, quite possibly staggering.

http://archive.news.iastate.edu/news/2010/sep/costofcrime

Ever wonder why the country is broke?

If nothing changes, then nothing will change.

that is for sure.

Sad comentary? I hardly think so
It shows the majority of the people think instead of react emotionaly

But know this, I agree society has a problem
But the problem is not guns. Gun violence is only a symptom

And the reason our country is broke is because of uncontroled spending

and now Obama wants two more years of debt ceiling raises

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Gravitymaster 0]

It's also worth pointing out that when this country finally gets serious about reducing spending, police and law enforcement will be one area that spending cuts will have to be made. Fewer Police means more crime and shifts more of the responsibility for personal safety to the individual. In addition, as our economy worsens, the crime rate will move upward. Only an idiot would think that making weapons harder to get is a good idea.

[skypuppy 1]

Quote

Quote

I am for something that makes sense

I am too. name something.

Quote

But the emotional knee jerk "solutions" the banners want lack any sense at all

Because being emotional has nothing to do with the issue right? I mean why should I be emotional when my child is shot to death and it destroys the lives of an extended family and costs society hundreds of thousands of dollars each in societal cost. Sure, emotion should never enter into it. We all should be robots.

Quote

A link I posted for kallend shows prosecutions under the Obama admin for gun issues is down 40% from the Bush admin. Why? (I think this fact and Fast and Furious are related but that is another thread)

Governments are broke right? Everyone wants smaller govt and cuts in spending. We have seen local police affected by budget cuts all the way down to the local level here in FL. You want more prosecutions and more 'following the law'? Then get ready for bigger govt, more police, more prisons, more spending.

Quote

AP also posted yesterday that these types of crimes are down in the 2000's.

Only partly relevant. Society is clearly demonstrating that we are fed up and want change, the stats may not matter anymore BECAUSE emotion does matter eventually. and we are not actually changing anything so people want something to change.

Quote

Guns can be used for evil. Guns can be used for good. This kid had evil in his heart and no soul. Add that to his mental issues (which those like you and the media like to ignore) and the we get what you post. Someone totally ignoring the real problem

We ignore the real problem all the time. We fought a trillion dollar war in Iraq that had no purpose and now we are floundering in another one in Afghanistan. The 'kid' was likely a law abiding citizen exercising gun rights until he shot his Mom.

Quote

As for your hint, another 100M guns did not add to the problem. So conversely, taking them away will not help

Australia's latest experiment seems to contradict that.

Quote

Another thing, this kid committed 3 felonies before he went to the school

In your world, one of those laws should have stopped his mass killings too?

So, it is easy to debunk your failed assertions here

And as I said, up to that point, he was a law abiding citizen. If they did not have a house full of guns, he might have just killed his Mom with a knife, but I doubt that he would have gotten into a school or gotten very far with just a knife, or a baseball bat, or a chain saw.

Quote

When you calm down and think (instead of feel) and let go of an anti-constitution, anti-gun ideology, we may get a chance at a rational debate

We will CHANGE the laws and likely the Constitution. You will participate or likely lose many of the rights you hold so dear. I'm in a battle to save Skydive City because of security fence that WILL be built. It's a fact. The rationale is not there at all. They are going to build a fence. It makes no sense. They are going to do it anyway.

And they are going to change your laws. You can participate and pretend that you case, or you can sit back and watch it come down around you.

We choose to participate.

Quote

Until then my friend

all good points, but society is fed up.

I don't know that society is fed up. The stats I saw showed 47 % vs 44 %.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[Gravitymaster 0]

Is Skydive City a Gun Free Zone?

[normiss 803]

Depends on who you ask....

My understanding is that given the city owns the airport property being leased to SDC, it is illegal to posses a weapon on airport property.

I still want to know who shot the LP gas tanks a number of years ago...

[rushmc 23]

Quote

that's a sad commentary of the intelligence of the American people.

If nothing changes, then nothing will change. The cost to society is immense, quite possibly staggering.

http://archive.news.iastate.edu/news/2010/sep/costofcrime

Ever wonder why the country is broke?

If nothing changes, then nothing will change.

that is for sure.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/12/17/Small-Protest-Gathers-in-Front-of-NRA-s-DC-Office

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[normiss 803]

Time to stock up now.
Pre-ban products will not go away, they'll just get more expensive and wildly inaccurately labeled.
Again.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Time to stock up now.
Pre-ban products will not go away, they'll just get more expensive and wildly inaccurately labeled.
Again.

I already have

Just to make some money in the future

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,998]

>Even an on line ABC polls today shows no stomach for changing gun laws

============
Most Back Ban on High-Capacity Clips; Many See Societal Issues in Connecticut Shootings
ABC News
Dec 17, 2012 12:00pm

More than half of Americans say the school shootings in Newtown, Connecticut, reflect broader problems in society rather than an isolated act of a troubled person – more than after other recent shooting incidents, suggesting the possibility of a new national dialogue on violent crime.

This ABC News/Washington Post poll also finds that 54 percent of Americans favor stricter gun control laws in general, numerically a five-year high, albeit not significantly different than in recent years. Fifty-nine percent support a ban specifically on high-capacity ammunition clips, a step on which partisan and ideological gaps narrow substantially and “strong” support peaks.
=============
CBS News/ December 17, 2012, 6:30 PM
Poll: Support for stricter gun control at 10-year high

By Sarah Dutton, Jennifer De Pinto, Anthony Salvanto, Fred Backus and Stephanie Condon

Following the devastating mass shooting in Newtown, Conn., support for stricter gun control laws is now the highest it's been in a decade and has surged 18 points since the spring of this year, according to a new CBS News poll.

Fifty-seven percent of Americans now say gun control laws should be made more strict, according to the poll, conducted Dec. 14 - 16.
==============

New gun control laws are coming. Not because of the evil gun-grabbing Obama, or the witch Pelosi, or any of the usual bogeymen. It will be because the parents of US children demand it.

Now there are a few ways that gun advocates can respond:

1) "You're all idiots! Guns don't kill people, people kill people! What, are you going to ban spoons now? MORE guns is the answer." Result - such people will be marginalized as clueless ideologues and tough new gun control laws will be passed. Indeed, they will be passed partly in response to these people.

2) A quieter approach; basically advocate for guns without all the hyperbole and the condescension. Avoid doing so right after shootings. Result - new gun laws, although they at least will not be in reaction to the ideologues.

3) An active approach. If a suggestion for stricter gun control laws comes from the NRA - a mild one, one that has a chance of making a difference but does not unduly tread on the rights of gun owners - not only will it help gun owners avoid tougher laws, but it will give gun advocates a moral standing that will help them in future gun control debates. And it may help prevent shootings, which leads us to:

4) The best possible approach. Implement laws that work. Get involved with people around you who seem to have mental health issues; get them help before they snap. Go out of your way to get in people's faces about irresponsible use of guns. Gun safes, trigger locks, off-premise secure storage, whatever it takes. The attitude of "it's his gun, I can't tell him what to do with it" clearly isn't working, but a more active approach might. And if this approach actually DOES prevent future shootings, then the impetus behind gun control laws will evaporate - and that will do more than anything else to secure gun rights for the future.

[rushmc 23]

And if they do come, it will solve nothing

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[RonD1120 62]

Quote

Is Skydive City a Gun Free Zone?

Hmmm, that is a good question.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[normiss 803]

There is no social benefit in decreasing the availability of
guns if the result is only to increase the use of other means of
suicide and murder, resulting in more or less the same
amount of death. Elementary as this point is, proponents of
the more guns equal more death mantra seem oblivious to it.
One study asserts that Americans are more likely to be shot
to death than people in the world’s other 35 wealthier nations.
While this is literally true, it is irrelevant—except,
perhaps to people terrified not of death per se but just death
by gunshot. A fact that should be of greater concern—but
which the study fails to mention—is that per capita murder
overall is only half as frequent in the United States as in several
other nations where gun murder is rarer, but murder by
strangling, stabbing, or beating is much more frequent.

[billvon 2,998]

>And if they do come, it will solve nothing

For the most part I agree - because what I suspect will happen is the gun advocates will scream and dig in their heels and not contribute at all to any new-law effort. Thus the law will get passed without any "good" input from experts.

Which is too bad. Some gun laws are better than others, and I would think that gun advocates would have a vested interest in passing good ones rather than bad ones.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

>And if they do come, it will solve nothing

For the most part I agree - because what I suspect will happen is the gun advocates will scream and dig in their heels and not contribute at all to any new-law effort. Thus the law will get passed without any "good" input from experts.

Which is too bad. Some gun laws are better than others, and I would think that gun advocates would have a vested interest in passing good ones rather than bad ones.

I see your view

What do you suggest?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,998]

>There is no social benefit in decreasing the availability of guns if the result is only to
>increase the use of other means of suicide and murder, resulting in more or less the
>same amount of death.

Agreed. However, as the China incident vs the Connecticut incident demonstrates, that's not a given.