Why Pro and Anti-Gun Advocates Are Not Speaking The Same Language

[rushmc 23]

The best solution to problems like that is to not have them.

[billvon 2,991]

>There is no lock will work a 100%.

Agreed. But you can get to 99.99%

> Prevention doesn't work.

Bullshit. Not true in any other area - skydiving, medicine, fire prevention etc etc.

>In the real world if you can't defend yourself when someone decides they want to kill
>you, you are screwed.

Quite literally true. And if you don't have a fourth reserve when all your others have failed, you are screwed as well. Do you wear four reserves?

>The first line of defense is your self.

Again, bullshit. The first line of defense is . . . the first line of defense, like your front door.

See if you can honestly answer this question. Let's say you want to protect your family. What's the best option:

1) Get a good front door and a good lock. Get an alarm system and get gratings on your windows (or otherwise restrict access.) Maintain them well and keep them locked.

2) Leave the doors and windows open all the time and have a gun on the table to defend yourself.

[beowulf 1]

Now you are just being silly.

Having a good front door and lock, alarm system, gratings on your windows won't stop a determined criminal. And in those cases calling 911 won't stop them either.

[billvon 2,991]

I didn't think you'd be able to answer.

Yes, a good lock won't stop a determined criminal. Neither will a gun. You're dead, period.

However, for the vast majority of criminals, locks do a world of good. And if your goal is protecting your family, keeping criminals out wins hands down over being able to open fire and blow them away. History demonstrates that families are put at risk by such approaches.

[beowulf 1]

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I didn't think you'd be able to answer.

Yes, a good lock won't stop a determined criminal. Neither will a gun. You're dead, period.

However, for the vast majority of criminals, locks do a world of good. And if your goal is protecting your family, keeping criminals out wins hands down over being able to open fire and blow them away. History demonstrates that families are put at risk by such approaches.

If a criminal get's past a good lock then a gun sure can stop them. They can't do anything if they are dead.

[beowulf 1]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/teachers-armed-guns-texas-school-article-1.1224257

Active security is much better then just passive security. Passive security measures can be defeated and then if you don't have any thing else you are screwed.

[billvon 2,991]

>If a criminal get's past a good lock then a gun sure can stop them.

A foolish hope. A criminal is going to care about your gun if no one is there? On the other hand, he will definitely care about your gun if he can get into your house while you're not there, get the gun and wait there for you or your family to return. Then he can kill you, take your valuables - and now he has a gun.

If he has a rifle, how quickly can you draw and fire after he's put two in your chest? If he sets your house on fire, is getting your gun really going to take priority over getting your family out?

Real life isn't like a Rambo movie - which is why having a gun in the house puts your family more at risk than it does to protect them.

[beowulf 1]

Quote

>If a criminal get's past a good lock then a gun sure can stop them.

A foolish hope. A criminal is going to care about your gun if no one is there? On the other hand, he will definitely care about your gun if he can get into your house while you're not there, get the gun and wait there for you or your family to return. Then he can kill you, take your valuables - and now he has a gun.

If he has a rifle, how quickly can you draw and fire after he's put two in your chest? If he sets your house on fire, is getting your gun really going to take priority over getting your family out?

Real life isn't like a Rambo movie - which is why having a gun in the house puts your family more at risk than it does to protect them.

Nice job moving the goal post.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

>There is no lock will work a 100%.

Agreed. But you can get to 99.99%

> Prevention doesn't work.

Bullshit. Not true in any other area - skydiving, medicine, fire prevention etc etc.

>In the real world if you can't defend yourself when someone decides they want to kill
>you, you are screwed.

Quite literally true. And if you don't have a fourth reserve when all your others have failed, you are screwed as well. Do you wear four reserves?

>The first line of defense is your self.

Again, bullshit. The first line of defense is . . . the first line of defense, like your front door.

See if you can honestly answer this question. Let's say you want to protect your family. What's the best option:

1) Get a good front door and a good lock. Get an alarm system and get gratings on your windows (or otherwise restrict access.) Maintain them well and keep them locked.

2) Leave the doors and windows open all the time and have a gun on the table to defend yourself.

Hmm

Well in the perspective you your post there are not reasons to have

seat belts

parachute reserves

PPE

what else can we add to the list?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[OHCHUTE 0]

Quote

>There is no lock will work a 100%.

Agreed. But you can get to 99.99%

> Prevention doesn't work.

Bullshit. Not true in any other area - skydiving, medicine, fire prevention etc etc.

>In the real world if you can't defend yourself when someone decides they want to kill
>you, you are screwed.

Quite literally true. And if you don't have a fourth reserve when all your others have failed, you are screwed as well. Do you wear four reserves?

>The first line of defense is your self.

Again, bullshit. The first line of defense is . . . the first line of defense, like your front door.

See if you can honestly answer this question. Let's say you want to protect your family. What's the best option:

1) Get a good front door and a good lock. Get an alarm system and get gratings on your windows (or otherwise restrict access.) Maintain them well and keep them locked.

2) Leave the doors and windows open all the time and have a gun on the table to defend yourself.

EXACTLY WHAT I WAS THINKING. Glad you posted this Billvon so I didn't have to. Yea leave the front door wide open but put a gun on the night stand. I really can't believe these conversation that EXCLUDE door locks are even taking place. Not having windows on first level is also a measure. Then you just spot anyone in the parking lot with a 10 foot ladder and a rifle.

[kallend 2,027]

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Now you are just being silly.

Having a good front door and lock, alarm system, gratings on your windows won't stop a determined criminal. And in those cases calling 911 won't stop them either.

Cho wasn't a determined criminal, Loughner wasn't a determined criminal, Lanza wasn't a determined criminal, Kazmierczak wasn't a determined criminal...

They were all mentally ill people who had way too easy access to firearms.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[beowulf 1]

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Quote

Now you are just being silly.

Having a good front door and lock, alarm system, gratings on your windows won't stop a determined criminal. And in those cases calling 911 won't stop them either.

Cho wasn't a determined criminal, Loughner wasn't a determined criminal, Lanza wasn't a determined criminal, Kazmierczak wasn't a determined criminal...

They were all mentally ill people who had way too easy access to firearms.

Now you want to get into what 'determined' means and that is just silly. These people went out of their way to kill people. Banning things does not magically make them go away or even make them harder to get. Illegal drugs are easy to get despite the 'War on Drugs'. Prohibition didn't get rid of alcohol or really make it harder to get. There are millions of semi auto rifles, hand guns and high capacity magazines in the US. Banning them will just create a huge black market where they won't care how sane you are or what your background is.

[kallend 2,027]

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Quote

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Now you are just being silly.

Having a good front door and lock, alarm system, gratings on your windows won't stop a determined criminal. And in those cases calling 911 won't stop them either.

Cho wasn't a determined criminal, Loughner wasn't a determined criminal, Lanza wasn't a determined criminal, Kazmierczak wasn't a determined criminal...

They were all mentally ill people who had way too easy access to firearms.

Now you want to get into what 'determined' means and that is just silly. These people went out of their way to kill people. Banning things does not magically make them go away or even make them harder to get. Illegal drugs are easy to get despite the 'War on Drugs'. Prohibition didn't get rid of alcohol or really make it harder to get. There are millions of semi auto rifles, hand guns and high capacity magazines in the US. Banning them will just create a huge black market where they won't care how sane you are or what your background is.

Way to miss the point entirely. GUNS, per se, are not the issue. Crazy people having easy access to guns is the issue.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[beowulf 1]

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Way to miss the point entirely. GUNS, per se, are not the issue. Crazy people having easy access to guns is the issue.

No, I didn't miss that point. I just don't think that banning things will keep guns out of the hands of crazy people, especially things that are in such high numbers already in the hands of the general public.

[kallend 2,027]

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Way to miss the point entirely. GUNS, per se, are not the issue. Crazy people having easy access to guns is the issue.

No, I didn't miss that point. I just don't think that banning things will keep guns out of the hands of crazy people, especially things that are in such high numbers already in the hands of the general public.

Well, where did I propose banning guns? (Here's a hint - I didn't)

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[beowulf 1]

It's hard to keep up with what each person is arguing for. So what is your point? Or are you just arguing for the fun of it?

[kallend 2,027]

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It's hard to keep up with what each person is arguing for. So what is your point? Or are you just arguing for the fun of it?

I'm arguing for: a more rigorous background check on ALL firearms transfers.

Mandatory long prison sentences for all illegal transfers.

I'll also argue for strict liability on gun owners for any criminal use of their weapons.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[beowulf 1]

I can agree with that

[beowulf 1]

While I can agree with what you propose I don't think it's enough. In addition there needs to be some type armed security at all schools. What form that take will be up to each school. It could be hired armed security guards or volunteer LEO or allowing teachers and other staff to get a state issued CHL and carry on campus. The measures you advocate are good but they are not proactive enough and can be circumvented.