rehmwa 2
Recommended Posts
havoc996 0
Perhaps I missed it but has anybody brought up the fact that parts of the original ban are STILL in effect in Conn? You are not allowed to have a collapsible stock in Conn. Theoretically this is to increase the overall length of the weapon and make it less concealable. This however was not at all effective given the shooter at Sandy Hook didn't care about hiding the weapon. You also have to have whatever muzzle device is on your rifle permanently attached.
The ban is not going to solve anything. Education and laws regarding securing firearms is a much more important area to look at. Homes are not adequate for securing firearms in and of themselves. A deadbolt is a joke and only serves as a deterrent. If you don't believe this ask any MIL/LEO/Firefighter and they will surely tell you just how quickly a deadbolt can be defeated. A safe is a necessity and one that is not easily moveable.
Below are LAWS currently in effect and it should be noted that one of the few states with stricter laws than the majority is the state where the Sandy Hook MASSACRE happened. That added scrutiny did absolutely nothing to protect those people and children.
For the record I would be happy to explain the difference between a CLIP and a MAGAZINE or answer any other questions regarding firearms that I am able. Educating the public is the first way to begin to tackle this problem. PM me if anyone has any questions regarding proper terminology or exactly what something is. I have seen so much misinformation pumped out of ALL news agencies lately and it is only fueling a fire that is dividing the country while the problem is getting none of the attention it so desperately needs.
CALIFORNIA:
fixed (Bullet Button) magazine configuration, and 10-Round Magazines
CONNECTICUT:
pinned and welded Muzzle Device, Fixed A2 Stock
HAWAII:
10-Round Magazines
MARYLAND:
20-Round Magazines
MASSACHUSETTS:
pinned and welded Muzzle Device, Fixed A2 Stock, 10-Round Magazines
NEW JERSEY:
pinned and welded Muzzle Device, Fixed A2 Stock, 10-Round Magazines
NEW YORK:
pinned and welded Muzzle Device, Fixed A2 Stock, 10-Round Magazines
WASHINGTON:
- No Short Barreled Rifles (SBR’s), or barrels less than 16.1” in total length.
The ban is not going to solve anything. Education and laws regarding securing firearms is a much more important area to look at. Homes are not adequate for securing firearms in and of themselves. A deadbolt is a joke and only serves as a deterrent. If you don't believe this ask any MIL/LEO/Firefighter and they will surely tell you just how quickly a deadbolt can be defeated. A safe is a necessity and one that is not easily moveable.
Below are LAWS currently in effect and it should be noted that one of the few states with stricter laws than the majority is the state where the Sandy Hook MASSACRE happened. That added scrutiny did absolutely nothing to protect those people and children.
For the record I would be happy to explain the difference between a CLIP and a MAGAZINE or answer any other questions regarding firearms that I am able. Educating the public is the first way to begin to tackle this problem. PM me if anyone has any questions regarding proper terminology or exactly what something is. I have seen so much misinformation pumped out of ALL news agencies lately and it is only fueling a fire that is dividing the country while the problem is getting none of the attention it so desperately needs.
CALIFORNIA:
fixed (Bullet Button) magazine configuration, and 10-Round Magazines
CONNECTICUT:
pinned and welded Muzzle Device, Fixed A2 Stock
HAWAII:
10-Round Magazines
MARYLAND:
20-Round Magazines
MASSACHUSETTS:
pinned and welded Muzzle Device, Fixed A2 Stock, 10-Round Magazines
NEW JERSEY:
pinned and welded Muzzle Device, Fixed A2 Stock, 10-Round Magazines
NEW YORK:
pinned and welded Muzzle Device, Fixed A2 Stock, 10-Round Magazines
WASHINGTON:
- No Short Barreled Rifles (SBR’s), or barrels less than 16.1” in total length.
Trail mix? Oh, you mean M&M's with obstacles.
rehmwa 2
QuoteIf a device that kills tens of thousands is on the table for the southpaws...one to which only one person in the entire USA has access too. Then why discount hammers and clubs?
that's his point - you'll discount the bomb, and he'll claim that he can then discount the hammers - a pissing contest on who has the most outrageous strawman is really silly
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
rushmc 23
QuoteThat is not what I'm saying. A non-emotional point for a ban is the one I pointed out in my initial point in this thread. I'm not saying I think it works well enough to justify a ban, but it's definitely a non-emotional point for a ban.
Debate that, don't just move all over the map, dodging and declaring me to be pro-ban, then anti-gun, and everything else it takes.
You seem to define people by what you perceive them as being for or against. Maybe it's not all that black and white.
Wendy P.
But its not Wendy
It is emotional because the point has no backing
I am not declaring you anything
You say that limiting the rounds to 10 MIGHT make some differenenc, but it would not eliminate the fact it MIGHT still happen
The only thing any type of ban will do it make criminals of currently law abiding people
It is already known that a ban of this type does nothing
Manly because what really happens does not fit the mold
And criminals dont care about laws by definition
The cities with the strongest gun laws in the US have the highest rate of gun killings
Why extend those type of laws when it is clearly shown they do not work? Answer = emotion
We know that states with the most liberal of gun laws do NOT show any higher incident of gun crime but yet you try and make the argument that there is a non emotional debate to be had in favor of strong gun laws even when history shows otherwise
I dont get it Wendy
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
An experienced shooter can change magazines in the range of 1-1.75 seconds. Thats not enough time to charge someone while theyre reloading. Which makes the high capacity magazine less relevant.
rushmc 23
QuotePerhaps I missed it but has anybody brought up the fact that parts of the original ban are STILL in effect in Conn? You are not allowed to have a collapsible stock in Conn. Theoretically this is to increase the overall length of the weapon and make it less concealable. This however was not at all effective given the shooter at Sandy Hook didn't care about hiding the weapon. You also have to have whatever muzzle device is on your rifle permanently attached.
The ban is not going to solve anything. Education and laws regarding securing firearms is a much more important area to look at. Homes are not adequate for securing firearms in and of themselves. A deadbolt is a joke and only serves as a deterrent. If you don't believe this ask any MIL/LEO/Firefighter and they will surely tell you just how quickly a deadbolt can be defeated. A safe is a necessity and one that is not easily moveable.
Below are LAWS currently in effect and it should be noted that one of the few states with stricter laws than the majority is the state where the Sandy Hook MASSACRE happened. That added scrutiny did absolutely nothing to protect those people and children.
For the record I would be happy to explain the difference between a CLIP and a MAGAZINE or answer any other questions regarding firearms that I am able. Educating the public is the first way to begin to tackle this problem. PM me if anyone has any questions regarding proper terminology or exactly what something is. I have seen so much misinformation pumped out of ALL news agencies lately and it is only fueling a fire that is dividing the country while the problem is getting none of the attention it so desperately needs.
CALIFORNIA:
fixed (Bullet Button) magazine configuration, and 10-Round Magazines
CONNECTICUT:
pinned and welded Muzzle Device, Fixed A2 Stock
HAWAII:
10-Round Magazines
MARYLAND:
20-Round Magazines
MASSACHUSETTS:
pinned and welded Muzzle Device, Fixed A2 Stock, 10-Round Magazines
NEW JERSEY:
pinned and welded Muzzle Device, Fixed A2 Stock, 10-Round Magazines
NEW YORK:
pinned and welded Muzzle Device, Fixed A2 Stock, 10-Round Magazines
WASHINGTON:
- No Short Barreled Rifles (SBR’s), or barrels less than 16.1” in total length.
Good post
I had forgotten this
The type of ban the antis want already existed in CO
yet Sandy Hook still happened
And I gotta ask
What makes one type of muzzel device makes a weapon more dangerous
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
SkyDekker 1,465
QuoteQuoteIf a device that kills tens of thousands is on the table for the southpaws...one to which only one person in the entire USA has access too. Then why discount hammers and clubs?
that's his point - you'll discount the bomb, and he'll claim that he can then discount the hammers - a pissing contest on who has the most outrageous strawman is really silly
Simply not true. Marc was trying to make a logical argument regarding the banning of tools based on the possible actions of people who would think differently.
However, for logic to be true, it has to hold up in all scenarios. So when we substituted a different tool, the logic fell apart for most people.
This indicates that the argument is not logic based but emotion based.
Marc has tried to frame all his arguments here as logical and the arguments of those not agreeing with him as based on pure emotion.
Wendy got it, based on her post above. I don't think you, among others, were able to see past your dislike for me in assessing the situation.
rehmwa 2
Quotedifference between a CLIP and a MAGAZINE
I always thought a clip was a device that held rounds in a ready to load format. You can use a clip to load either an internally structured or independent magazine. i.e., when actually shooting the weapon, the clip isn't attached or present in the assembly (take the clip, the rounds come off of the clip to more efficiently load the weapon's magazine, clip goes in pocket, magazine goes in weapon (if not already inside) - weapon is loaded)
Sometimes a clip is as simple as a thin metal track that a row of ammo waits on - they can be pushed off of one end into whatever is then used to feed the weapon. A "quick-loader" likely qualifies as a type of 'clip'.
The magazine is a round feeding device either integral to the weapon or independently inserted/exchanged. the magazine needs to be present in the weapon during operation if more than just one shot is required.
If I'm wrong, I'm always willing to learn.
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
SkyDekker 1,465
QuoteAn experienced shooter can change magazines in the range of 1-1.75 seconds. Thats not enough time to charge someone while theyre reloading. Which makes the high capacity magazine less relevant.
I agree that it makes it less relevant. Relevance is probably based on the severity of the restriction. A restriction at capacity of 2 or 1 is much more relevant than restriction at capacity of 10 or more.
rushmc 23
QuoteQuoteIf a device that kills tens of thousands is on the table for the southpaws...one to which only one person in the entire USA has access too. Then why discount hammers and clubs?
that's his point - you'll discount the bomb, and he'll claim that he can then discount the hammers - a pissing contest on who has the most outrageous strawman is really silly
If you want to take the bebate to nuke bombs, OK
It still boils down to the owner/user
If a nut job has the bomb we are all in danger
If the owner is not a nut job, not so much
So it is more about people than the object
Same with guns
The difference is that guns are available by the millions
Banning them only makes current owner criminals
I dont think there are millions of nude bombs around
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
rehmwa 2
QuoteWendy got it, based on her post above. I don't think you, among others, were able to see past your dislike for me in assessing the situation.
I got it perfectly clearly. If you see past your assumptions about me, you'll see I understood what you were doing and note it was reasonable since Marc opened that door.
I like you just fine, though I find you a bit unnecessarily grim and contentious in the forums, no more than that.
QuoteHowever, for logic to be true, it has to hold up in all scenarios
I find that to be a bit silly. It has to hold up to all analogous scenarios. I can extend any analogy to the point of ridiculous on any debate and prove or disprove. That's why we call them strawmen. You two are just pissing on each other's legs, IMO.
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
rushmc 23
QuoteQuoteAn experienced shooter can change magazines in the range of 1-1.75 seconds. Thats not enough time to charge someone while theyre reloading. Which makes the high capacity magazine less relevant.
I agree that it makes it less relevant. Relevance is probably based on the severity of the restriction. A restriction at capacity of 2 or 1 is much more relevant than restriction at capacity of 10 or more.
So now you eliminate many classes of weapons totally
Including hand guns and shot guns
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
wmw999 2,544
And a restriction at 1 or two eliminates six-shooters as a class, if you want to extend the ban to any weapon that can shoot and kill. That would be a logical extension.
The way to discuss really is to discuss the points, and not just rant.
That the US seems to have a higher preponderance of violent crime than many other developed societies seems to be a fact. Not all of them, but a noticeable number.
Does the long-term ready availability of guns enter into that?
Does the original makeup of the original dominant society (white people who came out of grit, and then took over from the natives, and brought in workers) enter into it?
Does the racial and national heterogeneity enter into it?
Probably they all do.
Do we even want a lower level of random violence in the US? Are we willing to change anything to get there, or are we only willing to change someone else's something?
Wendy P.
The way to discuss really is to discuss the points, and not just rant.
That the US seems to have a higher preponderance of violent crime than many other developed societies seems to be a fact. Not all of them, but a noticeable number.
Probably they all do.
Do we even want a lower level of random violence in the US? Are we willing to change anything to get there, or are we only willing to change someone else's something?
Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
wolfriverjoe 1,523
QuoteI'm not sure a ban would accomplish what the people voting for it would hope it to accomplish. It might reduce the likelihood of a single gunman in a mass killing scenario, but certainly wouldn't eliminate it.
But I wasn't ever debating for an assault weapon ban. I was just trying to get the debate onto non-emotional ("they hate all guns") basis.
Wendy P.
The problem is that those who wish to institute these bans usually appeal to emotion, not logic. The speeches made on the floor of congress back in 94 were short on fact (and even shorter on facts that were correct) and long on emotion.
Flash hiders don't hide the flash from anyone except the shooter (and it just reduces it some) Bayonet lugs? How many homocides were committed by using a bayonet on the end of a rifle? The assertions that a pistol grip allows a shooter to "spray bullets more easily" is pathetic (it allows the shooter to keep the rifle against the shoulder with less stress on the wrist). To repeat: The banners are appealing to emotion, not logic. Logic doesn't seem to matter to them. If it did, they'd go after pistols, which are used in most homocides, not "scary looking" military rifles, which are used in very few, but very high-profile number of shootings.
Feinstein didn't even try to bring up any sort of AWB until she had everyone up in arms, and emotional over the Sandy Hook tragedy.
And (addressing previous posts of yours) the difference between "clip" and "magazine" is technical, usually only jumped on by those who wish to demonstrate that they are right and knowledgable.
And the problem with banning anything over 10 rounds is that most rifles (and pistols too) have detachable mags. There isn't any difference between an AR that takes a 10 round mag and one that takes a 30 (or even a 100 round Beta drum mag). There are a bazillion mags out there. Banning future production or sale won't do much execpt jack the price up. Incidentally, Brownells (a major parts catalog dealer) reported selling 3 1/2 years worth of AR mags in the past couple of weeks, according to one of the network news shows. And any rifle that takes a detachable mag (not just the military style) can take a mag that holds a bunch of ammo. Most hunting rifles come with 5 round mags, because a lot of states have limits for hunting, but many of those rifles have larger capacity mags available.
And even back in 94, Clinton delayed signing the original AWB for a few days, which allowed manufacturers to produce a few hundred thousand more mags before the ban took effect.
And they were never unavailable (well, except for a few exotic pistols, like the H&K squeeze-cocker), they just got expensive. You could still obtain, for example, a standard capacity Glock mag, it just cost $100, not $30. I remember a couple of dealers offering free mag replacements to police departments. It seemed like a "nice, responsible" gesture, until someone realized that the new mags were "Law enforcement only" and the old ones could be sold to anyone.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy
"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo
"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo
rehmwa 2
QuoteI dont think there are millions of nude bombs around
I won't be the first to comment, but I can see an upside and a downside with mass proliferation of nudity. I'd certainly let it determine where I'd choose to hang out.
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
rushmc 23
Again everyone
The whole point of this thread was to show the flawed thought process of bans
The emotion is based on murders
How can one argue that guns are an evil tool to commit murder and not argue the same for hammers and clubs when hammers and clubs have killed more people than the evil gun?
Rationalize that for me please
The whole point of this thread was to show the flawed thought process of bans
The emotion is based on murders
How can one argue that guns are an evil tool to commit murder and not argue the same for hammers and clubs when hammers and clubs have killed more people than the evil gun?
Rationalize that for me please
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
wmw999 2,544
QuoteI won't be the first to comment, but I can see an upside and a downside with mass proliferation of nudity. I'd certainly let it determine
wherewhat I'd choose to hang out.
Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
rushmc 23
QuoteQuoteI dont think there are millions of nude bombs around
I won't be the first to comment, but I can see an upside and a downside with mass proliferation of nudity. I'd certainly let it determine where I'd choose to hang out.
In my case me nude may be more disastrous than a nuke bomb
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
SkyDekker 1,465
QuoteQuoteQuoteAn experienced shooter can change magazines in the range of 1-1.75 seconds. Thats not enough time to charge someone while theyre reloading. Which makes the high capacity magazine less relevant.
I agree that it makes it less relevant. Relevance is probably based on the severity of the restriction. A restriction at capacity of 2 or 1 is much more relevant than restriction at capacity of 10 or more.
So now you eliminate many classes of weapons totally
Including hand guns and shot guns
I am not eliminating anything, I was commenting on the relevance of restrictions on magazine capacity.
There would be some relevance at the other extreme as well, when you restrict magazines to a minimum of say 5,000 rounds
rushmc 23
QuoteQuoteI won't be the first to comment, but I can see an upside and a downside with mass proliferation of nudity. I'd certainly let it determine
wherewhat I'd choose to hang out.
Wendy P.
Well
this is one way to lighten up a thread
Might even get it moved to the Bonfire
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
rushmc 23
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteAn experienced shooter can change magazines in the range of 1-1.75 seconds. Thats not enough time to charge someone while theyre reloading. Which makes the high capacity magazine less relevant.
I agree that it makes it less relevant. Relevance is probably based on the severity of the restriction. A restriction at capacity of 2 or 1 is much more relevant than restriction at capacity of 10 or more.
So now you eliminate many classes of weapons totally
Including hand guns and shot guns
I am not eliminating anything, I was commenting on the relevance of restrictions on magazine capacity.
There would be some relevance at the other extreme as well, when you restrict magazines to a minimum of say 5,000 rounds
I know what you meant and the comment was not aimed at your intentions
Sorry
I was making the point of where the 1 or 2 round comment would take things
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
rushmc 23
QuoteQuoteI dont think there are millions of nude bombs around
I won't be the first to comment, but I can see an upside and a downside with mass proliferation of nudity. I'd certainly let it determine where I'd choose to hang out.
One thing for sure
It would sure change the concealed weapons debate
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
rehmwa 2
QuoteThe way to discuss really is to discuss the points, and not just rant.
That the US seems to have a higher preponderance of violent crime than many other developed societies seems to be a fact. Not all of them, but a noticeable number.Does the long-term ready availability of guns enter into that? Does the original makeup of the original dominant society (white people who came out of grit, and then took over from the natives, and brought in workers) enter into it? Does the racial and national heterogeneity enter into it?
Probably they all do.
Do we even want a lower level of random violence in the US? Are we willing to change anything to get there, or are we only willing to change someone else's something?
Your last point appeals to my natural cynicism on the topic. Not sure how to affect that item.
But your topic points seem to be interesting sociological discussion that, seems to me, would lead to a lot of vague validations of peoples subjective social biases, but don't really address or lead to solutions. Just opportunities for social manipulation - not a good track record there, usually just good intentions with worse results. In otherwords, interesting discussions that will inevitability devolve to more emotional arguments because they won't go anywhere else.
I like the idea of discussing hard points - especially details as to what is proposed and the perceived effectiveness of them. Take note of Wolfriverjoe - he's trying and succeeding better than most
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
I don't need to stick up for Wendy, but I don't see Wendy advocating for, or against, a ban here. I do see her trying to get to some kind of discussion point worth talking about. All this while you and Dekker try to talk about weird extrapolations and get nowhere - (normal Speaker's Corner SOP). (If you want to extend to hammers to make a point (valid, IMO) then he can certainly extend the other way (though something like a cannon would be analogous, nukes is too far a stretch IMO). Then it's just a discussion of context - which is a valid debate)
I'd seriously take her earlier attempt at clarification and try to discuss the pros/cons of the thought that smaller mags would make a difference. (she also noted this was debatable and didn't offer a position either way)
I'd contend they won't - with police response times in the minutes, and the time to swap a mag in the seconds, combined with a very passive victim set. the idea that smaller mags would have any impact on a defenseless group of victims just seems to be pointless. If fact, I could easily see a crazy bring 5 or six mags with 9 (?) rounds in them since he couldn't find a single 20 round mag in the store anymore.
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
Share this post
Link to post
Share on other sites