rehmwa 2
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QuoteSo you even oppose background checks?
Can you name even one measure you could support that doesn't involve making this country even more of an armed camp than it already is?
Don
No. I don’t oppose background checks as a matter of philosophy any more than I oppose capital punishment as a philosophical matter.
But can you tell me honestly that requiring background checks for gun purchases will mean guns aren’t sold without background checks? It’ll just expand the black market, and I assure you that there are some criminal enterprises out there that are cheering this proposal.
And another point – we’re talking about preventing these tragedies. It wouldn’t have prevented Sandy Hook (he killed the gun owner and took the guns). It wouldn’t have prevented Taft (he stole the shotgun). It wouldn’t have prevented the Portland Mall Shooting (he stole the rifle from a friend). The New York firefighter killings – a straw purchaser. Wouldn’t have prevented it.
So that’s the thing – making policies that would not prevent these acts from occurring. Symbolism over substance. Which is why I ask, “What is the ultimate goal?”
Additionally – it will show people with a criminal record. It may even show that a person has been held involuntarily on a psyche hold (Note: these psyche holds are usually not subject to review. Say you’ve been wrongly held on one. What about that?). But would it reveal anything on the guy who shot Gabby Giffords? Nope. What about the guy who shot up the theater in Aurora? Nope.
In order to have effective background checks we have to open up our medical histories. Say somebody’s parents divorced when he was ten and he had some therapy sessions for six months in the past. There are criticisms – which I myself find to be somewhat justified – that the DSM has the effect of pathologizing normal human behavior. And the unintended consequence (as is seen with airline transport pilots) is that they will REFUSE to seek any treatment for depression due to the consequences of getting help.
So I’m arguing AGAINST background checks because: (1) They would not have prevented the majority of the shootings that the order is seeking to prevent; (2) They will be largely ineffective considering the right to privacy enunciated in Griswold v. Connecticut and Roe v. Wade – the penumbra of rights under the 14th Amendment; and (3) They will chill people from accessing treatment for mental health issues.
Yeah. My problems are not “background checks.” My problems are the ineffectiveness at meeting the proposed goal.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
rehmwa 2
Quote
QuoteThis would mean that if your brother wanted to give you a gun, he would be required to take the gun to a licensed firearms dealer and have him process the sale for a fee and then the dealer would perform a background check on you. Then you would be required to register the firearm before taking possession.
Kind of like when you give a relative your car.
that's not a background check as a placebo claiming to improve public safety.... right? it's to check for insurance and to collect taxes, and to provide a little income for the licensing bureau.....
but I think you're hitting a real reason here....
I am wondering where to get my concealed car carry training though. That and carry permit for my house...
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
billvon 2,991
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>You would be more successful calling it the Craigs List loophole
Then Rehmwa would say "you could buy them at gun shows too" - and wonder why the implied lie is so popular.
But it's called "the gun show loophole" because that's where people go to buy guns, and the loophole makes it possible for convicted murderers to buy guns there with no background checks.
>This would mean that if your brother wanted to give you a gun, he would be required
>to take the gun to a licensed firearms dealer and have him process the sale for a fee
>and then the dealer would perform a background check on you. Then you would be
>required to register the firearm before taking possession.
Agreed with the first part, not with the second. No registration required, just the background check.
Then Rehmwa would say "you could buy them at gun shows too" - and wonder why the implied lie is so popular.
But it's called "the gun show loophole" because that's where people go to buy guns, and the loophole makes it possible for convicted murderers to buy guns there with no background checks.
>This would mean that if your brother wanted to give you a gun, he would be required
>to take the gun to a licensed firearms dealer and have him process the sale for a fee
>and then the dealer would perform a background check on you. Then you would be
>required to register the firearm before taking possession.
Agreed with the first part, not with the second. No registration required, just the background check.
That's my confusion, Paul. he mentioned 23 executive orders. But then he mentioned a bunch of stuff he wants Congress to do.
The speech was a remarkable example of lack of clarity. What does he want Congress to do? What is he doing himself?
My wife is hotter than your wife.
The speech was a remarkable example of lack of clarity. What does he want Congress to do? What is he doing himself?
My wife is hotter than your wife.
NewGuy2005 53
QuoteQuote
QuoteFalse. Anytime a citizen purchases a gun from a dealer, he must submit to a background check. Gun shows are no exception.
Anytime someone buys a firearm from a NON-LICENSED DEALER at a gun show, or anywhere else, no background check.
I've never been to a gun show where there was an unlicensed dealer. Calling it a Gun Show loophole is nothing but hyperbole the gun-o-phobes use to scare people.
Nonsense. I've been to many gunshows that had sellers that were "private collectors" that were free to sell without background checks.
I am in favor of more thorough background checks and closing the gun show loophole. I am against hi-capacity magazine and assault rifle bans.
rehmwa 2
QuoteYeah. My problems are not “background checks.” My problems are the ineffectiveness at meeting the proposed goal.
that depends on which "proposed goal"
If it's to 'make us all safer from wackos and nutbags' - I don't think it does the job.
If it's to 'take away some rights from individuals and give more control to government over our actions' - then it's a win
If it's to 'placate ignorant fanatics and create a PR campaign that congress critters can leverage to gain votes from both groups' - then it's a win
So - what's the real "GOAL" here?
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
billvon 2,991
>What is he doing himself?
Google is your friend!
1. "Issue a presidential memorandum to require federal agencies to make relevant data available to the federal background check system."
2. "Address unnecessary legal barriers, particularly relating to the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, that may prevent states from making information available to the background check system."
3. "Improve incentives for states to share information with the background check system."
4. "Direct the attorney general to review categories of individuals prohibited from having a gun to make sure dangerous people are not slipping through the cracks."
5. "Propose rulemaking to give law enforcement the ability to run a full background check on an individual before returning a seized gun."
6. "Publish a letter from ATF to federally licensed gun dealers providing guidance on how to run background checks for private sellers."
7. "Launch a national safe and responsible gun ownership campaign."
8. "Review safety standards for gun locks and gun safes (Consumer Product Safety Commission)."
9. "Issue a presidential Memorandum to require federal law enforcement to trace guns recovered in criminal investigations."
10. "Release a DOJ report analyzing information on lost and stolen guns and make it widely available to law enforcement."
11. "Nominate an ATF director."
12. "Provide law enforcement, first responders, and school officials with proper training for active shooter situations."
13. "Maximize enforcement efforts to prevent gun violence and prosecute gun crime."
14. "Issue a presidential memorandum directing the Centers for Disease Control to research the causes and prevention of gun violence."
15. "Direct the attorney general to issue a report on the availability and most effective use of new gun safety technologies and challenge the private sector to develop innovative technologies."
16. "Clarify that the Affordable Care Act does not prohibit doctors asking their patients about guns in their homes."
17. "Release a letter to health care providers clarifying that no federal law prohibits them from reporting threats of violence to law enforcement authorities."
18. "Provide incentives for schools to hire school resource officers."
19. "Develop model emergency response plans for schools, houses of worship and institutions of higher education."
20. "Release a letter to state health officials clarifying the scope of mental health services that Medicaid plans must cover."
21. "Finalize regulations clarifying essential health benefits and parity requirements within ACA exchanges."
22. "Commit to finalizing mental health parity regulations."
23. "Launch a national dialogue led by Secretaries Sebelius and Duncan on mental health."
Google is your friend!
1. "Issue a presidential memorandum to require federal agencies to make relevant data available to the federal background check system."
2. "Address unnecessary legal barriers, particularly relating to the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, that may prevent states from making information available to the background check system."
3. "Improve incentives for states to share information with the background check system."
4. "Direct the attorney general to review categories of individuals prohibited from having a gun to make sure dangerous people are not slipping through the cracks."
5. "Propose rulemaking to give law enforcement the ability to run a full background check on an individual before returning a seized gun."
6. "Publish a letter from ATF to federally licensed gun dealers providing guidance on how to run background checks for private sellers."
7. "Launch a national safe and responsible gun ownership campaign."
8. "Review safety standards for gun locks and gun safes (Consumer Product Safety Commission)."
9. "Issue a presidential Memorandum to require federal law enforcement to trace guns recovered in criminal investigations."
10. "Release a DOJ report analyzing information on lost and stolen guns and make it widely available to law enforcement."
11. "Nominate an ATF director."
12. "Provide law enforcement, first responders, and school officials with proper training for active shooter situations."
13. "Maximize enforcement efforts to prevent gun violence and prosecute gun crime."
14. "Issue a presidential memorandum directing the Centers for Disease Control to research the causes and prevention of gun violence."
15. "Direct the attorney general to issue a report on the availability and most effective use of new gun safety technologies and challenge the private sector to develop innovative technologies."
16. "Clarify that the Affordable Care Act does not prohibit doctors asking their patients about guns in their homes."
17. "Release a letter to health care providers clarifying that no federal law prohibits them from reporting threats of violence to law enforcement authorities."
18. "Provide incentives for schools to hire school resource officers."
19. "Develop model emergency response plans for schools, houses of worship and institutions of higher education."
20. "Release a letter to state health officials clarifying the scope of mental health services that Medicaid plans must cover."
21. "Finalize regulations clarifying essential health benefits and parity requirements within ACA exchanges."
22. "Commit to finalizing mental health parity regulations."
23. "Launch a national dialogue led by Secretaries Sebelius and Duncan on mental health."
Quote
QuoteThis would mean that if your brother wanted to give you a gun, he would be required to take the gun to a licensed firearms dealer and have him process the sale for a fee and then the dealer would perform a background check on you. Then you would be required to register the firearm before taking possession.
Kind of like when you give a relative your car.
I bought a shotgun many years ago because my wife wanted some home protection. (I told her I didn’t think a handgun was the best option). Bought the sucker new. Had a background check.
We divorced. She kept the shotgun because I didn’t want it to begin with. The transfer was a private transaction between me and her. Should my action be criminalized?
My wife is hotter than your wife.
quade 4
QuoteQuoteI'm agreement on this one. But my question is that since the 23 items were listed...and seemed reasonable why couldnt he do that through congress as well?
When was the last time something that seemed reasonable made it through congress?
Well, the last Congress was exceptionally bad at getting anything done. 23 items? I dunno. I think their head would have exploded.
Let's see what happens with this one.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
Quote>Anytime a citizen purchases a gun from a dealer, he must submit to a background
>check. Gun shows are no exception.
I didn't say "gun dealer." You can show up at a gun show with some handmade belt buckles, some fancy holsters and some guns. You can then sell the belt buckles to some Texans, sell the fancy holsters to some gun club and sell the guns to convicted murderers. And you will have done nothing wrong - at least, legally.
That's why gun shows are a great place for criminals to get weapons. Take in your cash, carry out your gun.
How many gun shows have you actually been to where you observed this?
rehmwa 2
Quote>You would be more successful calling it the Craigs List loophole
Then Rehmwa would say "you could buy them at gun shows too" - and wonder why the implied lie is so popular.
absolutely I would. This is about private sales vs dealer sales - simple as that. Packaging it in any other way is clearly just a way to escalate emotion from the uninformed. Why would be opposed to that? You are someone that makes real attempts, most of the time, to be data driven.
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
billvon 2,991
>How many gun shows have you actually been to where you observed this?
A grand total of two. (Also the only two gun shows I have ever been to.)
A grand total of two. (Also the only two gun shows I have ever been to.)
Quote
QuoteThis would mean that if your brother wanted to give you a gun, he would be required to take the gun to a licensed firearms dealer and have him process the sale for a fee and then the dealer would perform a background check on you. Then you would be required to register the firearm before taking possession.
Kind of like when you give a relative your car.
Only if I plan on driving that car on a public street. There are already laws in place if I want to go out in public with my gun.
Quote>How many gun shows have you actually been to where you observed this?
A grand total of two. (Also the only two gun shows I have ever been to.)
So you are claiming you saw unlicensed dealers selling guns? How did you know they weren't licensed?
Sounds like someone claiming they saw Mexicans and therefore they must be illegal.
quade 4
QuoteThat's my confusion, Paul. he mentioned 23 executive orders. But then he mentioned a bunch of stuff he wants Congress to do.
The speech was a remarkable example of lack of clarity. What does he want Congress to do? What is he doing himself?
Wow. Didn't even take a few moments to click the link provided and read them.
I gave you a link!
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
rehmwa 2
QuoteWell, the last Congress was exceptionally bad at getting anything done. 23 items? I dunno. I think their head would have exploded.
sure, quantity over quality wins? Certainly that guy at work that "looks" busy but doesn't accomplish much is promoted right?
1 - I'd rather a Congress passed 4 great laws in a term instead of 400 pieces of PR/impotent and intrusive crap.
2 - This Congress was even better, they likely passed 23 pieces of crap and lost on both counts
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
rehmwa 2
Quote>How many gun shows have you actually been to where you observed this?
A grand total of two. (Also the only two gun shows I have ever been to.)
How did you know which were licensed dealers and which weren't? Do they all have the same chewin' tobacky?
The last FFL dealer I worked with was the grandpa of a skydiver. He has a private collection, and works from his home. he was super competent, very responsible, and I didn't see a Cabela's, or a "Bob's Gun Shop" tattoo on his forehead or anything.
that's actually a good idea - if they aren't a licensed dealer, then they get a big "D" tattooed on their foreheads before setting up a table at the show. The D can stand for "Death Dealing Dirtbag".
Just so people know.
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
The Constitution was written many years ago..is that not supposed to move with the times, is it honestly set in stone?
Just asking as somone across the pond.
Cheers
Just asking as somone across the pond.
Cheers
billvon 2,991
>So you are claiming you saw unlicensed dealers selling guns? How did you know they
>weren't licensed?
Cause I asked them. One guy was selling old bicycle tools that were pretty interesting (old cotter pin extractor for bicycle cranks, wheel truer with spoke tension meter thing) and had a few guns in the bin next to it. I asked him if he was from a store and he said "no, just cleaning out the storage unit."
Ended up buying the cotter pin extractor, which I never used. (Cotterless cranks came along very soon after that.)
>weren't licensed?
Cause I asked them. One guy was selling old bicycle tools that were pretty interesting (old cotter pin extractor for bicycle cranks, wheel truer with spoke tension meter thing) and had a few guns in the bin next to it. I asked him if he was from a store and he said "no, just cleaning out the storage unit."
Ended up buying the cotter pin extractor, which I never used. (Cotterless cranks came along very soon after that.)
Skyrad 0
QuoteThat would make sense...
When I bought my sig 522 rifle they did the back round check and I had to wait till the next day to get it..
I was standing at the counter with my hi-power locked and load in the small of my back, Being a CW permit holder for 30yrs... We had a good laugh at least...
Killler
Assuming you're in the USA will your 522 be banned or is it only centre fire 'assault weapons'?
When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca
Lucius Annaeus Seneca
quade 4
QuoteThe Constitution was written many years ago..is that not supposed to move with the times, is it honestly set in stone?
Just asking as somone across the pond.
Cheers
It is considered to be a "living" document intended to change over time. In fact, the original document has procedures for doing so written into it.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
Skyrad 0
QuoteQuoteWell, the last Congress was exceptionally bad at getting anything done. 23 items? I dunno. I think their head would have exploded.
sure, quantity over quality wins? Certainly that guy at work that "looks" busy but doesn't accomplish much is promoted right?
1 - I'd rather a Congress passed 4 great laws in a term instead of 400 pieces of PR/impotent and intrusive crap.
2 - This Congress was even better, they likely passed 23 pieces of crap and lost on both counts
True
When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca
Lucius Annaeus Seneca
Quote>So you are claiming you saw unlicensed dealers selling guns? How did you know they
>weren't licensed?
Cause I asked them. One guy was selling old bicycle tools that were pretty interesting (old cotter pin extractor for bicycle cranks, wheel truer with spoke tension meter thing) and had a few guns in the bin next to it. I asked him if he was from a store and he said "no, just cleaning out the storage unit."
Ended up buying the cotter pin extractor, which I never used. (Cotterless cranks came along very soon after that.)
Sounds more like you were at a Flea Market. I've never seen anyone selling anything at a gun show other than gun related merchandise. Perhaps it should be referred to as the Flea Market loophole?
and apparently criminals can also get belt buckles and fancy holsters....we should 'control' those too
I wonder, if in the end, this all just a means to collect sales tax on another form of private property sales between private citizens. (I think there's already a law on that - how's it working?)
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
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