Stumpy 284
DHS says AR15 sporting rifle (and 30 round magazines) suitable for home defense
By
rushmc, in Speakers Corner
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rehmwa 2
QuoteOk - so you wear kevlar regularly?
do you mean the entire outfit?
or just the codpiece?
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
Stumpy 284
QuoteQuoteOk - so you wear kevlar regularly?
do you mean the entire outfit?
or just the codpiece?
Never try to eat more than you can lift
Stumpy 284
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteWell go figure
http://radioviceonline.com/department-of-homeland-security-sport-rifle-ar-15-suitable-for-personal-defense/
From the linkQuoteSection C of solicitation number HSCEMS-12-R-00011 is pretty specific. Here is a direct link to the Section C PDF (246KB). My emphasis in bold. Notice the term assault weapon or assault rifle is not used anywhere in the document.
The scope of this contract is to provide a total of up to 7,000 5.56x45mm North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) personal defense weapons (PDW) throughout the life of this contract to numerous Department of Homeland Security components. …
In paragraph 3.1 under requirements and testing standards we read…
DHS and its components have a requirement for a 5.56x45mm NATO, select-fire firearm suitable for personal defense use in close quarters and/or when maximum concealment is required.
Isn’t that inconvenient for the gun control politicians? In requirement paragraph 3.9.10, they find a need for a 30-round magazine.
The action shall be capable of accepting all standard NATO STANAG 20 and 30 round M16 magazines (NSN 1005-00-921-5004) and Magpul 30 round PMAG (NSN 1005-01-576-5159). The magazine well shall be designed to allow easy insertion of a magazine.
In paragraph 3.21.2, they again specify the requirement for a 30-round magazine.
The magazine shall have a capacity to hold thirty (30) 5.56x45mm NATO rounds.
Did you forget to quote the part talking about private citizens needing them for home defense?
All I saw in the parts you quoted was providing weapons for Law Enforcement?
The DHS doesn't say that at all - rushmc is being disingenuous (go figure). The author of the piece says that.
The DHS is purely trying to procure a weapon for its LEO's to use.
The rights and wrongs of gun control aside, I'm not sure I agree with the author about an AR being a good home defense weapon anyway - if only from a portability point of view.
Read it again
All I pointed out was that an AR15 is considered a good gun for home defense
WHO gets to have one is a different argument
But, in that context, if it is OK or one person to use one for home defense, why not me?
The Feds with have a select fire gun and I know I will not. However, the only disengenuousness here, is yours
Please point out in the RFP from DHS, where it says the AR15 is a good weapon for home defence.
Never try to eat more than you can lift
rushmc 23
https://www.fbo.gov/?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=d791b6aa0fd9d3d8833b2efa08300033&tab=core&_cview=0
The PDF's on the right
3rd one down
Section 3.1
And actually, the whole link is about AR rifle in 5.56 for home defense
Good enough for them but not us?
The PDF's on the right
3rd one down
Section 3.1
And actually, the whole link is about AR rifle in 5.56 for home defense
Good enough for them but not us?
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
rhaig 0
QuoteI also agree. And I also don't think that parents should be able to opt their kids out of this training, just as I don't think that parents should be able to opt their kids out of sex education.
Wendy P.
I think it should be available but not required. Just as cooking, sewing, child care, driving, and other life-skills (non-academic) are offered but not required. If I want to take marksmanship as a PE elective for one of my required PE credits, then I think that should be OK. In freshman PE (almost 30 years ago now), we pretty much did a survey of all the PE electives in addition to general PE stuff. The school's rifle program shut down (from lack of interest, in rural KS, you learned to shoot before HS) a few years prior, but the .22 bolt-guns were still in the storage room with the fencing gear.
If we were to introduce this program locally and I was asked for input, I would suggest we make marksmanship a PE elective and include a week of basic rifle safety and marksmanship in the freshman PE class. As with sex ed, parents who don't want their children attending, file for an exception and their kid has to sit and read, go to study hall, whatever the local school has for something like that.
--
Rob
Rob
davjohns 1
Sometimes. Around the house. It's comfy.
I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..
But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.
But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.
rhaig 0
Quote
A shotgun would be better still.
I attended a recent trainers seminar that asserted the exact opposite. Between recoil management, target acquisition, and the precision that might be needed in a shoot/no-shoot situation, a shotgun loses. If you assume that you only need to fire a single shot, AND there is nobody else in the house, then go get your shotgun. If you might have to fire more than one round, or you might have to miss someone who is partially covering your target, then a rifle is better.
As for stopping power, if you train mightily with your shotgun, you can unload them quite fast on target. If you put the same amount of training into an AR platform, you can put more lead downrange on target with your AR.
It's still a personal preference thing, but given recoil management and how important shot placement is (one shot stops are mythical) my choice is not for a shotgun. A carbine seems like a much more versatile home defense platform.
don't get me wrong, I still want a shotgun, but for entirely different reasons :)
--
Rob
Rob
QuoteQuoteQuoteThat's one of my intruder alert systems. Combined with the alarm system and the night lighting, it announces that the range is open and targets are about to present themselves.
You guys must fantasize about some serious invaders.
I envision a 75lb shepherd as enough for a random home invader looking for my xbox to turn around.
I dont see them trying to continue their burglary lol.
When Chuck Norris attacks you are going to need your 5 layer system though, I will give you that.
As the owner of a 75lb shepherd myself, I can tell you unless your dog has had protection training, most dogs are easily circumvented. Nice ham bone or treat or even just a very confident person can get around him.
Again, what kind of burglars do you guys envision are prowling the neighborhood at night?
They are unafraid of strange 75lb German Shepherds, and carrying around ham bones.
Lol.
My shepherd bit the shit out of my dad when he walked in the house without knocking once. Maybe if he brought a ham bone in it woulda been ok.
Good thoughts.]
QuoteWe have a 100 lb Shephard Rottweiler mix. He's pretty territorial, seems to enjoy the fact that protection is part of his job, and definitely elevates his awareness/alert level when I'm gone and he's home with my wife. Still, his job is to act as deterrent and alarm system, not defender. Also, walking through my house in the dark with unknown persons doing suspicious things, I'll be carrying a handgun. I'd prefer my AR, but I can't retrieve it nearly as quickly or quietly as my .40. I was just talking to my wife last week about getting her a shotgun for this purpose if my work has me traveling more.
Blues,
Dave
Where do you live that these Chuck Norris style home invaders are wandering around the house at night in the dark, with the 100lb rotty mix???
I need to avoid moving there those criminals have brass balls the size of cantelopes.
I sure as fuck am not wandering around a strangers house at night when there is a 100lb crazy ass rotweiler chasing me.....all to steal a digital camera and a xbox I could just as easily take from somewhere without a 100lb crazy dog......but thats me.
So again, where the hell is this place with these insanely brave burglars?
QuoteQuoteOk - so you wear kevlar regularly?
do you mean the entire outfit?
or just the codpiece?
Lol, that was funny.
QuoteSometimes. Around the house. It's comfy.
I like to wear 'hot booties' while cleaning my ACR.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm0dZKb-0Lc
QuoteQuoteWe have a 100 lb Shephard Rottweiler mix. He's pretty territorial, seems to enjoy the fact that protection is part of his job, and definitely elevates his awareness/alert level when I'm gone and he's home with my wife. Still, his job is to act as deterrent and alarm system, not defender. Also, walking through my house in the dark with unknown persons doing suspicious things, I'll be carrying a handgun. I'd prefer my AR, but I can't retrieve it nearly as quickly or quietly as my .40. I was just talking to my wife last week about getting her a shotgun for this purpose if my work has me traveling more.
Blues,
Dave
Where do you live that these Chuck Norris style home invaders are wandering around the house at night in the dark, with the 100lb rotty mix???
I need to avoid moving there those criminals have brass balls the size of cantelopes.
I sure as fuck am not wandering around a strangers house at night when there is a 100lb crazy ass rotweiler chasing me.....all to steal a digital camera and a xbox I could just as easily take from somewhere without a 100lb crazy dog......but thats me.
So again, where the hell is this place with these insanely brave burglars?
Clearly you're being sarcastic, but I'll stay up here. My dog would probably not chase a burglar, nor would most dogs unless specifically trained for that purpose. His jobs are to a) notice an intruder, b) scare intruders, and c) alert me and/or my wife of their presence. In other words, pay atttention and be big & loud. Dogs are easily foiled, and my guess is most people thinking of breaking/entering know this and have a plan for dealing with an unexpected dog. Most would probably leave and look for a softer target. If an "xbox" or laptop or whatever was not the goal, that's where guns come in handy. I want my wife to have a dog as big as her, who looks scary to the uninitiated, and I want her to have a gun to put said person on his back if the dog doesn't scare him off.
I live in a low-crime area. Oddly enough though, there has been a recent uptick in night-time burglaries of occupied homes, some with dogs. One of my co-workers recently had a laptop and tablet and purse taken from her kitchen/dining area in the middle of the night, and another friend of mine had two neighbors on his block be the victims of similar crime. The common theme (outside of being "nice" neighborhoods) was unlocked back doors. Cops suspect young-ish males just walking through back yards, checking doors and seeing what was within easy grabbing distance if unlocked. Simple solution there, assuming they stick with just crimes of opportunity, as I lock the doors at night. On the other hand, what if its something else? Another of my co-workers was the victim of a home invasion about 3 years ago. A maintenance worker at her higher-end apartment complex knew she lived alone. He got keys to her apartment from the managers office and let himself in at something like 4 AM, shattered her arm & wrist with a crowbar, and beat her about the head enough to require 43 stitches, then raped her.
A dog like mine and a gun could have stopped him. Barking = get gun, guy enters anyhow = shoot him.
No dog and no gun = lay back and try to enjoy it?
Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)
(drink Mountain Dew)
killler 2
Well here's my dog...
killler 2
And here he is again with the ar-15 everyone is so scared of.....
Stumpy 284
Quotehttps://www.fbo.gov/?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=d791b6aa0fd9d3d8833b2efa08300033&tab=core&_cview=0
The PDF's on the right
3rd one down
Section 3.1
And actually, the whole link is about AR rifle in 5.56 for home defense
Good enough for them but not us?
I might be reading this differently to you, however personal defense for an LEO =! home defense.
As I read it, this is for guys on duty? If the DHS is buying 7000 of these purely for their officers to take home and use for defending their home then I stand corrected. Seems unlikely though. Especially when you read the rest of the criteria for the weapon.
Never try to eat more than you can lift
rushmc 23
QuoteQuotehttps://www.fbo.gov/?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=d791b6aa0fd9d3d8833b2efa08300033&tab=core&_cview=0
The PDF's on the right
3rd one down
Section 3.1
And actually, the whole link is about AR rifle in 5.56 for home defense
Good enough for them but not us?
I might be reading this differently to you, however personal defense for an LEO =! home defense.
As I read it, this is for guys on duty? If the DHS is buying 7000 of these purely for their officers to take home and use for defending their home then I stand corrected. Seems unlikely though. Especially when you read the rest of the criteria for the weapon.
Their words
Not mine
Home defense
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
QuoteQuoteAn AR/M16 is the perfect home defense weapon. The 5.56 doesn't penetrate though sheet rock like the 9mm does (hard to believe but true). Lots of agencies are going to the AR/M16 for just this reason. It's simply safer than having people shooting glocks or MP5's inside apartment buildings.
That and most are going to hit more often with an AR than a pistol.
A shotgun would be better still.
For those days when Up Close and Personal is the call.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
QuoteQuoteQuoteThere are lots of things LEO's do to improve their chances that a regular guy wouldn't want to or need to.
Such as? And why in the world would anyone not want to improve their chances? And how do you define "need" that covers all situations. That's just crazy.
Ok - so you wear kevlar regularly?
Nope...what does that have to do with wanting to or needing to?
You evaded that one question and didn't address the others.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
Quote
Clearly you're being sarcastic, but I'll stay up here. My dog would probably not chase a burglar, nor would most dogs unless specifically trained for that purpose. His jobs are to a) notice an intruder, b) scare intruders, and c) alert me and/or my wife of their presence. In other words, pay atttention and be big & loud. Dogs are easily foiled, and my guess is most people thinking of breaking/entering know this and have a plan for dealing with an unexpected dog. Most would probably leave and look for a softer target. If an "xbox" or laptop or whatever was not the goal, that's where guns come in handy. I want my wife to have a dog as big as her, who looks scary to the uninitiated, and I want her to have a gun to put said person on his back if the dog doesn't scare him off.
I live in a low-crime area. Oddly enough though, there has been a recent uptick in night-time burglaries of occupied homes, some with dogs. One of my co-workers recently had a laptop and tablet and purse taken from her kitchen/dining area in the middle of the night, and another friend of mine had two neighbors on his block be the victims of similar crime. The common theme (outside of being "nice" neighborhoods) was unlocked back doors. Cops suspect young-ish males just walking through back yards, checking doors and seeing what was within easy grabbing distance if unlocked. Simple solution there, assuming they stick with just crimes of opportunity, as I lock the doors at night. On the other hand, what if its something else? Another of my co-workers was the victim of a home invasion about 3 years ago. A maintenance worker at her higher-end apartment complex knew she lived alone. He got keys to her apartment from the managers office and let himself in at something like 4 AM, shattered her arm & wrist with a crowbar, and beat her about the head enough to require 43 stitches, then raped her.
A dog like mine and a gun could have stopped him. Barking = get gun, guy enters anyhow = shoot him.
No dog and no gun = lay back and try to enjoy it?
Blues,
Dave
The only sarcasm was that Chuck Norris was the one doing the breaking in.
That story is pretty terrible.
As a former maintenance supervisor I know specifically the kind of responsibility having access to thousands of peoples homes brings.
We did background checks for violence, wonder if they did as well.
Not sure how having a gun would have helped her since he was probably able to sneak in completely undetected since he had the keys. Still horrible.
I personally don't have any enemies, and I can't see a random person targeting me for murder or rape, but perhaps im just a sucker waiting to get shot.
I live in a pretty bad area ironically enough, I hear gunshots several nights a week at least. A cop was murdered a block or so from here about 6 months ago, they never caught the shooter, plenty of gang/drug activity around.
My house has also been burglarized once about 2 years ago.
It was the only time I had taken the dogs with me overnight since I moved in 5 years ago
They broke in and stole my digital camera and a big quart jar of pennies. Just about bankrupted me.
So IMO that is the "plan" of a burglar who wants to rob a house they know has big ass dogs......wait until the big ass dogs are gone.
As far as leaving your doors open for kids to wander in and rob you......don't do that without some sort of alert system?
QuoteQuoteQuotehttps://www.fbo.gov/?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=d791b6aa0fd9d3d8833b2efa08300033&tab=core&_cview=0
The PDF's on the right
3rd one down
Section 3.1
And actually, the whole link is about AR rifle in 5.56 for home defense
Good enough for them but not us?
I might be reading this differently to you, however personal defense for an LEO =! home defense.
As I read it, this is for guys on duty? If the DHS is buying 7000 of these purely for their officers to take home and use for defending their home then I stand corrected. Seems unlikely though. Especially when you read the rest of the criteria for the weapon.
Their words
Not mine
Home defense
"Your words
Not theirs"
Fixed that for you.
THEIR WORDS:
"Personal Defense Weapons Solicitation
Solicitation Number: HSCEMS-12-R-00011
Agency: Department of Homeland Security
Office: Immigration & Customs Enforcement
Location: ICE-OAQ-MS"
Thats the title.
the only HOME, is HOMELAND SECURITY.
You jump out of airplanes??
rushmc 23
Ok
Personal defense then it is
Is their personal defense more important than yours or mine?
And yes. I did jump out of airplanes
Started in 1977
First chute I purchased was a 28 foot lopo
I moved up to a Paracomander
Stopped for a few years and came back and got my rigger ticket
Retired because of a neck injury caused by a terminal reserve deployment
So
Are the feds protection more important than mine?
Personal defense then it is
Is their personal defense more important than yours or mine?
And yes. I did jump out of airplanes
Started in 1977
First chute I purchased was a 28 foot lopo
I moved up to a Paracomander
Stopped for a few years and came back and got my rigger ticket
Retired because of a neck injury caused by a terminal reserve deployment
So
Are the feds protection more important than mine?
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
Thanks for noticing your obvious mistake.
I would say their safety is equally important, and harder to ensure than yours or mine.
They are more exposed to crime and danger, and so they have a higher threshold to meet in order to remain safe.
Much like the Navy needs Aircraft carriers to defend itself. While the Navy's safety is no less important than yours, you don't really need an aircraft carrier to ensure yours.
ETA: and a rigging ticket! So I know you didn't miss that mistake, you made it intentionally. That is not the way to encourage constructive discussion.
We could have discussed it just as easily with a truthful thread title. Lets be genuine plz.
I would say their safety is equally important, and harder to ensure than yours or mine.
They are more exposed to crime and danger, and so they have a higher threshold to meet in order to remain safe.
Much like the Navy needs Aircraft carriers to defend itself. While the Navy's safety is no less important than yours, you don't really need an aircraft carrier to ensure yours.
ETA: and a rigging ticket! So I know you didn't miss that mistake, you made it intentionally. That is not the way to encourage constructive discussion.
We could have discussed it just as easily with a truthful thread title. Lets be genuine plz.
Ok - so you wear kevlar regularly?
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