Why would a government want a list of gun ownership?

[Andy9o8 2]

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You do realize that most guns used in crimes are not traceable back to the criminal aren't you? They are usually stolen and then sold, sometimes several times.

Bullshit

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html

http://gunvictimsaction.org/fact-sheet/fact-sheet-illegal-gun-trafficking-arms-criminals-and-youth/

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/15635712-418/illinois-and-indiana-big-source-of-guns-used-in-chicago-crimes-police-find.html

Requiring tracking of all sales would at the very least reduce straw sales, cross-state-border sales, gun show loopholes, etc. You would be able to track back to the last 'legal sale' and work from there.

Will I buy a gun for a friend for $50? Sure I will because when he uses it for a crime, they will not be able to trace the gun to me.

Will I buy a gun for a friend when I know that the sale is recorded and I might face 10 years in prison? Much less likely.

You don't have to worry about prosecution. If the police come for you, just throw yourself in the Ocean.

[kallend 2,027]

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You do realize that most guns used in crimes are not traceable back to the criminal aren't you? They are usually stolen and then sold, sometimes several times.

Well, law abiding "responsible" gun owners need to do a better job of safeguarding their guns, don't they? Well over 300,000 guns stolen every year from "responsible" law abiding gun owners.

Which means "responsible" law abiding gun owners are the ones arming the criminals. Which is why registration is a GOOD idea - we'll find out just who is really responsible and who is not.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[OHCHUTE 0]

State and Federal Gov't is broke. The real reason they want gun registration is to apply a tax or registration fee. Plus now insurance firms want in on the action and want individual owner liability insurance. Basically they'll make it too expense for anyone to own a gun.

[toolbox 0]

You think that registration will stop gun crime?
I don't think it will at all.
Criminals will simply buy guns that are smuggled into the country(we share alot of border) and can't be traced back to any source of origin, if manufactured by small groups working in their garages,or use the registration list to steal guns.
The US could not even keep track of a special inventory of weapons that they tried to use in the FAST AND FURIOUS debacle until they had already been used on US agents and other innocents.
You make it harder for law abiding gun owners to keep guns and easier for criminals to find the houses of gun owners to steal guns if anything.
You claim there is a huge number of gun deaths,yet if you look at it as a percentage,the total number of gun deaths is not even 1%,not 0.1%,not 0.01%,not 0.001%,not even 0.0001%,but more like 0.00005% of the population.

[lawrocket 3]

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In Reply To
I believe in womens rights,gay rights,minority rights,and our constitutional rights as they were written.

Really? Which version? When you say "...as they were written" do you mean are currently written or written in the original Constitution?

See, THAT, my friend, is the entire point here -- times change.

And the Constitution is amended accordingly. That"ks why the Bill of Rights was added - because of the fear of federal power. The 13th was added to ban slavery. The 14th was added so that the states would follow the federal Constitution.

But eventually there were the self-annointed "enlightened" who argued that the interpretation of the Constitution should be changed. That the "living breathing Constitution" fails to account for certain things, and thus while it looks like establishment of an official religion is banned, those were the old days and we should view it under modern eyes. Meaning that "Christianity" should be held to be the official religion.

Warrantless searches? Those were in the old days, when information traveled slowly. Now we need to read it in light of modern problems, which means that all e-mails must be screened under the power to regulate interstate commerce without a warrant. Sure, it may have been illegal in the past but back then sodomy and gay marriage were illegal, too.

That's the problem, Paul. Back in the day, when there was an issue of such importance we amended the Constitution.

Arbitrary reinterpretation is tyranny.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Andy9o8 2]

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But eventually there were the self-annointed "enlightened"

Shut up, dummy! That would be us!

[toolbox 0]

>Arbitrary reinterpretation is tyranny.

Thank you! You are the man

[tkhayes 348]

I never used the word 'registration' nor have I ever said that 'registration' will stop gun crime.

What I did say was that tracking the sales and importation of guns, from manufacturing to buyer to buyer, just like we do with cars and real estate, will provide far more evidence for solving crimes that what we have today.

And that is pretty much all I said.

[ManagingPrime 0]

Not directed at you, but you did mention "law abiding".

I'm concerned about gun registration. Not for the abstract reason of protection from government tyranny, which to a degree is a vaild concern. My concern is much more personal and it has to do with due process.

I could classify myself as an average citizen. I go to work. I pay a good chunk of taxes. I'm consciencous of laws.

The state of arizona saw fit to grant me a medical marijuana card due to chronic pain from various breaks throughout the years.

The ATF issuee a memo labeling people like myself drug addicts who are prohibited from owning firearms. Just having the state issued card makes me a criminal regardless of if I use it or not. Where is the due process?

There are a number of cases going through the courts and I feel for what those individuals are going through. The threat of a ten year prison sentence, however remote, is scary.

Sadly, the left that champions medical marijuana is silent. Sadly, the right who champions second ammendment rights is silent.

It's the vast majority of americans who are moderates who stand to lose the most when the partisans on either side try to chip away at the other sides rights. It's incremental, it's pervasive and if the line in not drawn somewhere we will all be labled as criminals with the threat of government prosecution being held over our heads and that my friends is when I stop paying taxes, renounce my citizenship and tell this government to fuck off as I move to some other banana republic with better weather.

[toolbox 0]

Sorry,I've drank my third cup of coffee and I have not flung myself at the dirt since november,and once again it is raining sideways.
If I ever make it back to Zhills I will buy you a couple of loaded hotdogs and a beer.
I'll even let you shoot me in the back with birdshot from 200 yardsno choke though.

[kallend 2,027]

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Not directed at you, but you did mention "law abiding".

I'm concerned about gun registration. Not for the abstract reason of protection from government tyranny, which to a degree is a vaild concern. My concern is much more personal and it has to do with due process.

I could classify myself as an average citizen. I go to work. I pay a good chunk of taxes. I'm consciencous of laws.

The state of arizona saw fit to grant me a medical marijuana card due to chronic pain from various breaks throughout the years.

The ATF issuee a memo labeling people like myself drug addicts who are prohibited from owning firearms. Just having the state issued card makes me a criminal regardless of if I use it or not. Where is the due process?

There are a number of cases going through the courts and I feel for what those individuals are going through. The threat of a ten year prison sentence, however remote, is scary.

Sadly, the left that champions medical marijuana is silent. Sadly, the right who champions second ammendment rights is silent.

It's the vast majority of americans who are moderates who stand to lose the most when the partisans on either side try to chip away at the other sides rights. It's incremental, it's pervasive and if the line in not drawn somewhere we will all be labled as criminals with the threat of government prosecution being held over our heads and that my friends is when I stop paying taxes, renounce my citizenship and tell this government to fuck off as I move to some other banana republic with better weather.

ATF can be brought to heel with a well constructed lawsuit. The National Association of Rocketry did it a few years back - made the ATF comply with their own rules instead of making up whatever shit they wished.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,027]

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In Reply To
I believe in womens rights,gay rights,minority rights,and our constitutional rights as they were written.

Really? Which version? When you say "...as they were written" do you mean are currently written or written in the original Constitution?

See, THAT, my friend, is the entire point here -- times change.

And the Constitution is amended accordingly. That"ks why the Bill of Rights was added - because of the fear of federal power. The 13th was added to ban slavery. The 14th was added so that the states would follow the federal Constitution.

But eventually there were the self-annointed "enlightened" who argued that the interpretation of the Constitution should be changed. That the "living breathing Constitution" fails to account for certain things, and thus while it looks like establishment of an official religion is banned, those were the old days and we should view it under modern eyes. Meaning that "Christianity" should be held to be the official religion.

Warrantless searches? Those were in the old days, when information traveled slowly. Now we need to read it in light of modern problems, which means that all e-mails must be screened under the power to regulate interstate commerce without a warrant. Sure, it may have been illegal in the past but back then sodomy and gay marriage were illegal, too.

That's the problem, Paul. Back in the day, when there was an issue of such importance we amended the Constitution.

Arbitrary reinterpretation is tyranny.

Explain how universal background checks, and keeping records of those checks, violates the Constitution.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[regulator 0]

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You do realize that most guns used in crimes are not traceable back to the criminal aren't you? They are usually stolen and then sold, sometimes several times.

Well, law abiding "responsible" gun owners need to do a better job of safeguarding their guns, don't they? Well over 300,000 guns stolen every year from "responsible" law abiding gun owners.

Which means "responsible" law abiding gun owners are the ones arming the criminals. Which is why registration is a GOOD idea - we'll find out just who is really responsible and who is not.

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How about enforcing the laws we have in place and actually sentencing the people who break into houses to hard time instead of a slap on the wrist where they are released in short time and then back out in the world robbing people again. Perhaps then there will be less guns stolen because pussy liberal judges finally grow a pair of balls and hold some of these thugs accountable for their actions.

[Andy9o8 2]

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How about enforcing the laws we have in place and actually sentencing the people who break into houses to hard time instead of a slap on the wrist where they are released in short time and then back out in the world robbing people again. Perhaps then there will be less guns stolen because pussy liberal judges finally grow a pair of balls and hold some of these thugs accountable for their actions.

How about knowing what you're talking about instead of just making it up or repeating commonly held misconceptions?

Any lawyer with 30 years criminal justice experience in multiple jurisdictions throughout the country, such as myself (and not just as a lawyer), knows that that kind of "problem leniency" in criminal courts is very politically unpopular, and, as such, it is very rare - so rare that, aside from the occasional "newsworthy" outrage, it statistically is practically insignificant.

The "problem" of lenient criminal-court judges is much like the "problem" of flag-burning: for the most part, it really isn't a problem.

[toolbox 0]

How about all the juvenile perps in big cities who are usually back on the streets within hours of being arrested,for crimes like car theft,home invasions,and assault?
The guy that got shot in the face five times by the mother in georgia,had just gotten out of jail after serving a very short sentence,and he had a history of violent criminal behavior.

[Andy9o8 2]

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How about all the juvenile perps in big cities who are usually back on the streets within hours of being arrested,for crimes like car theft,home invasions,and assault?
The guy that got shot in the face five times by the mother in georgia,had just gotten out of jail after serving a very short sentence,and he had a history of violent criminal behavior.

Everything you just said is covered by (all of) my post #39.

[lawrocket 3]

[Reply]xplain how universal background checks, and keeping records of those checks, violates the Constitutio

[rushmc 23]

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You do realize that most guns used in crimes are not traceable back to the criminal aren't you? They are usually stolen and then sold, sometimes several times.

Bullshit

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html

http://gunvictimsaction.org/fact-sheet/fact-sheet-illegal-gun-trafficking-arms-criminals-and-youth/

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/15635712-418/illinois-and-indiana-big-source-of-guns-used-in-chicago-crimes-police-find.html

Requiring tracking of all sales would at the very least reduce straw sales, cross-state-border sales, gun show loopholes, etc. You would be able to track back to the last 'legal sale' and work from there.

Will I buy a gun for a friend for $50? Sure I will because when he uses it for a crime, they will not be able to trace the gun to me.

Will I buy a gun for a friend when I know that the sale is recorded and I might face 10 years in prison? Much less likely.

So how does a back ground or registration scheme stop this?

From your links

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In fact, there are a number of sources that allow guns to fall into the wrong hands, with gun thefts at the bottom of the list. Wachtel says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales. A straw purchase occurs when someone who may not legally acquire a firearm, or who wants to do so anonymously, has a companion buy it on their behalf. According to a 1994 ATF study on "Sources of Crime Guns in Southern California," many straw purchases are conducted in an openly "suggestive" manner where two people walk into a gun store, one selects a firearm, and then the other uses identification for the purchase and pays for the gun. Or, several underage people walk into a store and an adult with them makes the purchases. Both of these are illegal activities

Same for the other two links

And as I said (and you ignored) none of that data solved or stopped a crime. Canada learned this the hard way. And is does not provide any path to stop the straw purchases. And all the suggestions only affect those who would or will follow the law effectively making it harder for those who can own and do nothing to those who should not

Do we need to repeat that mess?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[skypuppy 1]

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god forbid that we have some useful information when a gun crime is actually committed to find out where the gun came from or who owns it or even where to look for suspects.

Oh that's right, all the 'legal gun owners' are there to protect us all from those crimes. That is why the gun murder rate is so low.... Bank robberies almost never happen....gun suicide is non-existent....and innocent people never get shot.

Canada got rid of their registry for the following reasons

In the years it was in place no information from that registry helped solve any crime

and it was costing them billions

And crime rates have been dropping

So the number of guns does not make crime go up

So whats the real point?

Canada did indeed use the registry to confiscate guns when the police decided to 'reclassify' weapons that were initially legal to make them 'prohibited', and also when collectors passed away and the weapons couldn't stay in the estate.

There were also cases of weapons which were confiscated or turned in ending up in the private collections of LEO's, and cases of the registry data ending up in private hands where it was available to public, furnishing a nice shopping list for someone who might not want to actually have to pay retail prices for weapons.

Even though the federal gov't has done the right thing (finally) and abolished the long gun registry, we are still having to fight against the left's forces of evil as some provinces and their police administrations attempt to create back door registries against the spirit of the new federal regulations.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[airtwardo 7]

How about this as a reason . . . the stated purpose . . . the one they say they want to do it for . . . to try to help keep them out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them.

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Really?

And you honestly believe that?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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[rushmc 23]

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god forbid that we have some useful information when a gun crime is actually committed to find out where the gun came from or who owns it or even where to look for suspects.

Oh that's right, all the 'legal gun owners' are there to protect us all from those crimes. That is why the gun murder rate is so low.... Bank robberies almost never happen....gun suicide is non-existent....and innocent people never get shot.

Canada got rid of their registry for the following reasons

In the years it was in place no information from that registry helped solve any crime

and it was costing them billions

And crime rates have been dropping

So the number of guns does not make crime go up

So whats the real point?

Canada did indeed use the registry to confiscate guns when the police decided to 'reclassify' weapons that were initially legal to make them 'prohibited', and also when collectors passed away and the weapons couldn't stay in the estate.

There were also cases of weapons which were confiscated or turned in ending up in the private collections of LEO's, and cases of the registry data ending up in private hands where it was available to public, furnishing a nice shopping list for someone who might not want to actually have to pay retail prices for weapons.

Even though the federal gov't has done the right thing (finally) and abolished the long gun registry, we are still having to fight against the left's forces of evil as some provinces and their police administrations attempt to create back door registries against the spirit of the new federal regulations.

amazing isn't it?

Yet so many want to do it here when ALL the history recorded on the subject does not end good

I have been following the continuing war up there

Did the one province win the court case to keep the data on its people?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[skypuppy 1]

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god forbid that we have some useful information when a gun crime is actually committed to find out where the gun came from or who owns it or even where to look for suspects.

Oh that's right, all the 'legal gun owners' are there to protect us all from those crimes. That is why the gun murder rate is so low.... Bank robberies almost never happen....gun suicide is non-existent....and innocent people never get shot.

Canada got rid of their registry for the following reasons

In the years it was in place no information from that registry helped solve any crime

and it was costing them billions

And crime rates have been dropping

So the number of guns does not make crime go up

So whats the real point?

Canada did indeed use the registry to confiscate guns when the police decided to 'reclassify' weapons that were initially legal to make them 'prohibited', and also when collectors passed away and the weapons couldn't stay in the estate.

There were also cases of weapons which were confiscated or turned in ending up in the private collections of LEO's, and cases of the registry data ending up in private hands where it was available to public, furnishing a nice shopping list for someone who might not want to actually have to pay retail prices for weapons.

Even though the federal gov't has done the right thing (finally) and abolished the long gun registry, we are still having to fight against the left's forces of evil as some provinces and their police administrations attempt to create back door registries against the spirit of the new federal regulations.

amazing isn't it?

Yet so many want to do it here when ALL the history recorded on the subject does not end good

I have been following the continuing war up there

Did the one province win the court case to keep the data on its people?

Still under appeal I believe. I heard last that it would probably be 3-5 years in courts before it's settled and the feds would have to hand over the data. In that case, given that many gunowners are quickly trading weapons among themselves, all the data on serial numbers, addresses etc. will be out of date. But they will still have the addresses and contact info of many owners.

That said, there is nothing to stop individual provinces from starting to collect their own data regardless of the outcome of the federal long gun registry anyways.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[toolbox 0]

1928 the liberal Weimar party controlled government enacts extensive gun registration laws in germany.
1938 november 8th the nazis use gun registry to confinscate firearms starting first with the jews.
1938 november 10th the nazis began the round up of jews which would lead to the holocaust,and the nazis continued to use gun registries to confiscate guns not only in germany,but across europe.
1941 US attorney general Robert Jackson pushes for gun registry in the US and meets heavy resistance from congress,and as the world watches the spread of tyranny across europe, the nazis use each fallen countries gun registry to squash any chance of well armed resistance. The US congress takes measures to further strengthen the 2nd amendment and Jackson loses favor.
This is recent history,just 75 years ago,thats one lifespan.

[1969912 0]

That could never happen here. Not with people like Obama, Schumer, Holder, Feinstein, et al. watching out for our well being.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[toolbox 0]

Rrriigghht!