cryptocoin 0 #126 December 17, 2013 Quote Because the process used to create them is the computing power required to make a transaction. It's completely artificial with no relationship to work performed by humans. They are going up in price due to speculation, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with their actual value. They are not only used in criminal activities, but actually encourage it due to their untraceable nature. Further, you have no idea whatsoever what other nefarious activities might be hidden in the processing power of the transactions. If people are setting up bitcoin malware to "mine" bit coins, then what other malicious code might be involved? I would not be surprised to learn bitcoin mining are an enabling technology of world wide cyber war. Says the guy that obviously does not know what he is talking about. Firstly, you pay for computing power to secure the network and mine. This energy and equipment is just as real as it is in any other sector of finance or industry. Websites and photos etc. are 'just code' too, I suppose they are not worth anything either? And furthermore, bitcoin is completely transparent, the blockchain holds all the information of every transaction that has ever been made. One can study all the code (if they know how) and many have. The FBI like bitcoin. As anonymous as it is in terms of not needing to have bank accounts etc., the transactions can actually be traced with the right equipment and know how. Implementations like zerocoin or coinjoin would be unnecessary if bitcoin was actually completely anonymous. Before you go bashing something please ensure you understand it. Heck why not slap couple of hundy into it now while the prices are low... Then you might not feel so bitter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rick 67 #127 December 17, 2013 my friends put about 250k into the computer system they use for mining seems to be paying offYou can't be drunk all day if you don't start early! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 801 #128 December 17, 2013 No shit. I thought Charlie was CRAZEEEEE to make that decision. I think I had that backwards. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #129 December 17, 2013 base698One thing that's gotten lost in the speculative talk is its utility. Buying online is much less of a risk with bitcoin. As a merchant you don't have to worry about charge backs. As a consumer you don't have to enter a long form proving you are the card owner, since it operates more like cash. Consumers also don't have to worry about the merchants leaking their card information. The lack of charge backs isn't useful for the buyer. That allows scammers to sell shit and not deliver. Or companies with lousy error handling - like Newegg, for example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #130 December 17, 2013 cryptocoin Says the guy that obviously does not know what he is talking about. Firstly, you pay for computing power to secure the network and mine. This energy and equipment is just as real as it is in any other sector of finance or industry. Websites and photos etc. are 'just code' too, I suppose they are not worth anything either? So says the sock puppet who created an account merely to evangelize? the value of the USD is not based on the printing costs at the mint. And the price of gold is not based on the cost of mining either. It's based on how useful it is. If the cost of mining exceeds the perceived value, then people will stop doing it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #131 December 17, 2013 normiss When the world gooberments figure out how to get their cut, bitcoin will be mainstream. My friend that purchased the Tesla with bitcoins STILL has attorneys and tax accountants trying to figure out how to process a purchase that has already been completed. He paid no taxes nor fees, just a bitcoin transfer. He certainly paid sales tax to California. Wouldn't be able to complete registration without doing so. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base698 15 #132 December 17, 2013 QuoteThe lack of charge backs isn't useful for the buyer. That allows scammers to sell shit and not deliver. Or companies with lousy error handling - like Newegg, for example. I didn't say it was, that's why I made a distinction between the consumer and the merchant. I would much rather use bitcoin to buy something instead of having my credit card information stored by a third party indefinitely. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 801 #133 December 17, 2013 Are you positive? I have bought a car as a non-resident of where the sale originated and paid no state sales tax to that state. Nor property tax for that matter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cryptocoin 0 #134 December 18, 2013 Quotethe value of the USD is not based on the printing costs at the mint. And the price of gold is not based on the cost of mining either. It's based on how useful it is. If the cost of mining exceeds the perceived value, then people will stop doing it. The USD will crash, that is inevitable, you cannot go on printing money like that (QE1, QE2 etc...) without suffering the consequences. You cannot continue to invade every nation that tries to sell oil in something other than the dollar either... this further increases the chances of the dollar crashing. The US is going through a vicious circle at the moment. The sale of Oil is the only thing keeping it going. How well off is the US financially at the moment? Would you care to remind me? No the dollar is not worth the cost of the paper it is printed on. but the penny is worth less than the copper it takes to make one. Bitcoin is not only worth the energy and equipment it takes to mine one either... It is worth much more. With Bitcoin being finite and decentralised you do not have to worry about hyper inflation. Gold's price is being heavily suppressed at present also. I also have gold and silver in my portfolio. You do not have to lecture me on that, but it has lost 10% of its value on the past 4 months. While Bitcoin has increased by 600-700%. you see why Wall St. are starting to get interested now? That % is taking into account it's very low current price. It is only the panic sellers that are dumping because they are scared of government and bank smear campaigns... All this does is distribute the currency even further. It has happened before. I created this account because I am a skydiver. Not to evangelise. I happen to be very interested in crypto currency and this was the first thing I searched for here to see what people were saying about it. Like all forums there seems to be the few outspoken ones that want to bash it, while the majority seem to agree that bitcoin is a good thing.... Fortunately for me I have profited considerably from crypto, to the point where it is earning me more than my usual job (at present) that is also well paid. Even with the current lows... But what do I know...lol Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 801 #135 December 18, 2013 If it could remove us as a nation from slave to China status, I'd convert everything to it yesterday. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #136 December 18, 2013 Speaking of China: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/19/business/international/china-bitcoin-exchange-ends-renminbi-deposits.html"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 801 #137 December 18, 2013 Given the millions of people currently enslaved to them to repay foolish government mismanagement, why am I not surprised? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #138 December 18, 2013 So . . . how's that bit coin thing doing today?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weekender 0 #139 December 18, 2013 cryptocoinQuotethe value of the USD is not based on the printing costs at the mint. And the price of gold is not based on the cost of mining either. It's based on how useful it is. If the cost of mining exceeds the perceived value, then people will stop doing it. The USD will crash, that is inevitable, you cannot go on printing money like that (QE1, QE2 etc...) without suffering the consequences. You cannot continue to invade every nation that tries to sell oil in something other than the dollar either... this further increases the chances of the dollar crashing. The US is going through a vicious circle at the moment. The sale of Oil is the only thing keeping it going. How well off is the US financially at the moment? Would you care to remind me? No the dollar is not worth the cost of the paper it is printed on. but the penny is worth less than the copper it takes to make one. Bitcoin is not only worth the energy and equipment it takes to mine one either... It is worth much more. With Bitcoin being finite and decentralised you do not have to worry about hyper inflation. Gold's price is being heavily suppressed at present also. I also have gold and silver in my portfolio. You do not have to lecture me on that, but it has lost 10% of its value on the past 4 months. While Bitcoin has increased by 600-700%. you see why Wall St. are starting to get interested now? That % is taking into account it's very low current price. It is only the panic sellers that are dumping because they are scared of government and bank smear campaigns... All this does is distribute the currency even further. It has happened before. I created this account because I am a skydiver. Not to evangelise. I happen to be very interested in crypto currency and this was the first thing I searched for here to see what people were saying about it. Like all forums there seems to be the few outspoken ones that want to bash it, while the majority seem to agree that bitcoin is a good thing.... Fortunately for me I have profited considerably from crypto, to the point where it is earning me more than my usual job (at present) that is also well paid. Even with the current lows... But what do I know...lol Wall st cares about it because they see that they might make some money and its legal. that is not an endorsement of your ideas. i.e. the inevitable collapse of the USD and Bitcoin becoming a legitimate global currency. I dont know why any particular bank might be involved but it could be as simple as meeting customer demand. their customers ask about it and the figure they can create one and sell it. i dont pretend to know why but i am very certain they do not believe as you do. if so, there would be quite a scare in the markets. im glad you have made money in them. that is not sarcasm. but making money in something does not make it legitimate. it certainly does not make it a currency to be compared to the USD. Trillions of transactions a day take place with USD's, from one gumball to billions worth of bonds all over the world, in every language and at every moment. Bitcoins trade on no recognized exchange and are very illiquid. they trade in odd lots compared to other securities and currencies. they are quite a tiny phenomenon considering how many headlines they grab. also, currencies are meant to be stable. having huge swings make them very impracticable as a currency. by and large most people like to know roughly how much milk they can buy with a paycheck. they dont want a lottery, boom and bust every time they wake up. Bitcoins are interesting and you have proven you can make money. however, i do not see them becoming a competitor to the USD any time soon. as you said, but what do i know?"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird." John Frusciante Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #140 December 18, 2013 cryptocoin The USD will crash, that is inevitable, you cannot go on printing money like that (QE1, QE2 etc...) without suffering the consequences. You cannot continue to invade every nation that tries to sell oil in something other than the dollar either... this further increases the chances of the dollar crashing. The US is going through a vicious circle at the moment. The sale of Oil is the only thing keeping it going. The Ron Paul speech is great, but that's irrelevant to your false arguement that the cost of bitcoin mining means that bitcoins have value. The price support comes from its users. Quote With Bitcoin being finite and decentralised you do not have to worry about hyper inflation. Gold's price is being heavily suppressed at present also. I also have gold and silver in my portfolio. You do not have to lecture me on that, but it has lost 10% of its value on the past 4 months. While Bitcoin has increased by 600-700%. LOL - 'gold is being suppressed...' Most gold go to investors or for cosmetic uses. It only has considerable value so long as we collectively decide it does, even though it generates no income, just sits in the safe. Wow - that is quite a crash on bitcoin today. I'd love to know the ratio of winners to suckers on the exchanges. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cryptocoin 0 #141 December 19, 2013 QuoteThe Ron Paul speech is great, but that's irrelevant to your false arguement that the cost of bitcoin mining means that bitcoins have value. The price support comes from its users. My point is that it is no different to the dollar in terms of support. There is nothing but debt holding the worth of the dollar. In fact by rights the dollar should already have crashed and only the signatures of OPEC stop that from happening. Now that Saudi have had to start drilling offshore who knows when Russia will start exploiting the reserves they are sitting on... Personally I do not believe bitcoin will become the global reserve currency. There are too few of them and it is basically an experiment. This experiment is really working and who knows what the future holds. One thing is for sure though, the US$ and the fractional banking system is failing and they can only prop it up for so long... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DannHuff 0 #142 December 19, 2013 Quote The USD will crash, that is inevitable, you cannot go on printing money like that (QE1, QE2 etc...) without suffering the consequences. I'd be interested to understand what a crash would look like. Is it simply the USD falling in value relative to other currencies or do you mean a broader systematic crash (e.g. banks no longer able to repay cash deposits)? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cryptocoin 0 #143 December 19, 2013 QuoteI'd be interested to understand what a crash would look like. Is it simply the USD falling in value relative to other currencies or do you mean a broader systematic crash (e.g. banks no longer able to repay cash deposits)? That is the question for sure... Who knows, the fed and the powers that be have done a pretty darned good job of propping it all up so far, but prolonging the inevitable... Remember the dollar as we know it is only 100 years old and has lost well over 90% of it's value... Time will only tell. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weekender 0 #144 December 19, 2013 cryptocoinQuoteThe Ron Paul speech is great, but that's irrelevant to your false arguement that the cost of bitcoin mining means that bitcoins have value. The price support comes from its users. My point is that it is no different to the dollar in terms of support. There is nothing but debt holding the worth of the dollar. In fact by rights the dollar should already have crashed and only the signatures of OPEC stop that from happening. Now that Saudi have had to start drilling offshore who knows when Russia will start exploiting the reserves they are sitting on... Personally I do not believe bitcoin will become the global reserve currency. There are too few of them and it is basically an experiment. This experiment is really working and who knows what the future holds. One thing is for sure though, the US$ and the fractional banking system is failing and they can only prop it up for so long... you have a habit of stating your opinions as facts. for instance, the USD's imminent demise, the fact its supported by nothing but debt, the SOLE reason for its value is Saudi oil money and the certainty that our banking system is collapsing. all of which are overly simplistic, extreme and disjointed from the reality of the financial markets, IMO. i'm guessing you do not have a lot of financial industry experience or education. side note, its humorous to me that you gave two singular reasons for the USD's value. one being Saudi Oil, the other being debt. there cannot be two singular reasons for it value. 1+1=2. you are not doing a good job of making reasonable people interested in the validity of Bitcoins. I'm going to continue to ask for payments in USD's, thank you. (edited to correct material spelling error)"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird." John Frusciante Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base698 15 #145 December 19, 2013 I don't agree with the tinfoil hat crowd but do think bitcoin solves some pretty serious problems. The first being data leaks, like the recent Target leak, isn't an issue with bitcoin payments. Once you pay with bitcoin no one can recharge you. As a merchant you don't have to worry about the merchant freezing your account or the buyer issuing a chargeback. Micropayments are the last issue. You could charge .001 to read an article online. It's silly to think of it as a replacement for the USD, but it is a great compliment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #146 December 19, 2013 Sure its a good replacement and can never be stolen...http://www.businessinsider.com/220-million-sheep-marketplace-bitcoin-theft-chase-2013-12 $220 Million worth of BitCoins have been stolen by one person http://www.theverge.com/2013/12/19/5183356/how-to-steal-bitcoin-in-three-easy-steps hundreds of wallets have been cleaned out in dozens of little thefts. Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base698 15 #147 December 19, 2013 I'm talking once you spend them. The same risks of carrying cash apply and more risk if you use a third party service to store bitcoin. In the current model a third party like Target is a big score. A hacker can compromise everyone's cards if they access Target. The risk is more spread with bitcoin and there are different things to worry about. Delegating the responsibility to an unproven banking system is silly with both bitcoin and other currency. A consumer system like target could store the wallets offline and monitor the payments externally to verify if someone paid. No risk to the consumer and nothing to hack. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #148 December 19, 2013 base698I don't agree with the tinfoil hat crowd but do think bitcoin solves some pretty serious problems. The first being data leaks, like the recent Target leak, isn't an issue with bitcoin payments. Once you pay with bitcoin no one can recharge you. As a merchant you don't have to worry about the merchant freezing your account or the buyer issuing a chargeback. Micropayments are the last issue. You could charge .001 to read an article online. Credit card fraud could be solved in a lot of ways, starting with one time use numbers. Or the banks actually giving a shit about it...right now they're content to write off the fraud, or impose the true costs on the consumers. my method in the wild west of the dotcom era was to have the "online" credit card. But the card I've used at restaurants has been abused more often. The PIN option that all of the world besides the US uses is a pretty good way to address the ease of writing down my numbers at the cashier's desk. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cryptocoin 0 #149 December 20, 2013 QuoteThe PIN option that all of the world besides the US uses is a pretty good way to address the ease of writing down my numbers at the cashier's desk. Yes I had to laugh when I was in the united states of how prehistoric some of the banking systems were.... Cheques? gee who has used those in the last couple of decades. It is American cashiers cheques that are used in a lot of fraud including many many scams in the classifieds of this website. It is the american system that allows many of these people to be scammed. Because the banks protect the purchaser and not the seller. Because you can reverse the transaction. A nice bounce back in the crypto market last night (west asia time) I hope some of you managed to use the low point to your advantage, I sure did. I see you can buy luxury real estate in the US and Dubai now using bitcoin, luxury cars, food, beer and clothes... All the essentials for a bitcoin tycoon. You know, those little kids that were mining these in 2009 when most of these guys here bashing it were too busy being correct on a different political subject to... An investment of $1000 dollars back then or a few months mining could have you living in a luxury house now... but is is just a fad, right? http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-57615866-1/buy-this-$7.85-million-mansion-with-bitcoin/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #150 December 20, 2013 cryptocoin An investment of $1000 dollars back then or a few months mining could have you living in a luxury house now... but is is just a fad, right? On Tuesday a woman cleared $120M (after taxes) for a $1 MegaMillions ticket. There's no shortage of success in penny stocks either. But along with those winners is a huge number of losers, like the other billion plus dollars spend on the last MM jackpot. The classic line here: "past performance is not a indicator of future results." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
