Forcible Rape vs. Date Rape

[wmw999 2,452]

Posted on the "what would you accept" thread was a statement that forcible rape was a deal-breaker, but date rape, like where the woman changed her mind, wasn't.

There isn't a hard-and-fast line in there to my way of thinking. But either way, if you force someone to have sex through the use of violence or superior physical strength, it's rape. No matter which gender does it to which gender.

A couple of reasons why it's easier for a man to rape a woman include that an unwilling woman is far easier to force to have sex than an unwilling man (although the application of drugs and some stimuli can give men a hard-on when they don't want one particularly, I'm told). And, yes, most men are stronger than most women.

Date rape is quite real -- all the way from going out with a woman with the intent of raping her, all the way to "she changed her mind." A woman is, in fact, allowed to change her mind, and/or say no after kissing or something has started. Just as a man can say no to the woman.

Lying about it later is wrong, and should also be criminally punishable, because of the damage that a criminal rape conviction can do.

But there isn't, and can't be, a hard-and-fast line. I'd hate to be on a date rape case jury. The only people who "win" there are the viciously spiteful, like parents who want sole custody of their children only because it keeps them away from the other

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Remster 30]

I didn't bother reading that original thread, but it boggles the mind that this stupid "forcible rape" expression made its way into the vocabulary of some. Rape is rape.

Remster

[wmw999 2,452]

Quote

Rape is rape

Except for when it's only rape in retrospect

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Bolas 5]

Remster

I didn't bother reading that original thread, but it boggles the mind that this stupid "forcible rape" expression made its way into the vocabulary of some. Rape is rape.

+1

If in the course of the rape one uses or threatens violence with guns, knives, fists, etc. those are separate crimes.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Kennedy 0]

The way it's being discussed here, I don't see any line whatsoever. Date rape using force IS forcible rape. Prior association is irrelevant. Also, date rape by drugging (or taking advantage of otherwise powerless or unable to consent) is no less evil than forcible rape. If a person says no at any point, even after penetration, both parties must stop. Any failure to stop is rape. Using force to overcome resistance only makes the unforgivable even worse. I don't think it even slightly mitigates if the victim incapacitates him or herself. Anything other than mutual participation is wrong.

Conversely, any POS who claims rape or sexual assault when none occurred is beyond reprehensible. They victimize all true victims as well as the accused, and deserve the same thing those guilty deserve.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Darius11 12]

Quote

Date rape is quite real -- all the way from going out with a woman with the intent of raping her, all the way to "she changed her mind."

Agree as long as they do not change their mind after the fact.

I also think you have to be clear. Ref the case a few years ago where a woman was having sex with multiple men and when the last one was having sex with her she mentioned she should go home.

Those men were convicted of rape. I think there should just be rape, there is no kind of raped in my book.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

Kennedy

The way it's being discussed here, I don't see any line whatsoever. Date rape using force IS forcible rape. Prior association is irrelevant. Also, date rape by drugging (or taking advantage of otherwise powerless or unable to consent) is no less evil than forcible rape. If a person says no at any point, even after penetration, both parties must stop. Any failure to stop is rape. Using force to overcome resistance only makes the unforgivable even worse. I don't think it even slightly mitigates if the victim incapacitates him or herself. Anything other than mutual participation is wrong.

Conversely, any POS who claims rape or sexual assault when none occurred is beyond reprehensible. They victimize all true victims as well as the accused, and deserve the same thing those guilty deserve.

+1

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[rwieder 0]

Wouldn't using physical violence or restraint of any kind constitute "Aggravated Rape?" Thus making it a more severe set of circumstances for the accused?

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[kelpdiver 2]

wmw999

Posted on the "what would you accept" thread was a statement that forcible rape was a deal-breaker, but date rape, like where the woman changed her mind, wasn't.

There isn't a hard-and-fast line in there to my way of thinking. But either way, if you force someone to have sex through the use of violence or superior physical strength, it's rape. No matter which gender does it to which gender.

If you could have all facts in evidence, then there wouldn't be much need for distinction. But the world of 'date rape' is hardly so straightforward. Determining a violation between two familiars so 100x harder then determining it between two strangers - with the latter all you need is physical evidence.

It's particularly sticky when both people are highly drunk and go on to do things they regret the next morning. People are accountable for the actions they commit when inebriated - it's not a rape defense. But then she is also accountable for engaging in intercourse too.

And then there is statuatory rape, another case where rape != rape.

[Kennedy 0]

Depends on the state's laws. Some states have dozens of laws delineating various rapes (and more for sexual assaults). Others have very few. All I can think of include using a weapon as an aggravating factor or element of a more severe crime. Not all separate use of force from threat of force. Some states like to charge kidnapping with rape anytime the peep moves the victim as little as five feet against their will.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[rwieder 0]

Thanks for the clarification Kennedy. Rapists are pretty much up there with child molesters and the like. I've heard of some guy that had 3-4 women locked up for 10 yrs? I bet he gets "Old Sparky" (The old "Rusty Needle") as AD called it.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[kallend 2,027]

wmw999

Quote

Rape is rape

Except for when it's only rape in retrospect

Wendy P.

Is that when you pay the hooker with counterfeit $20 bills?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[winsor 236]

Remster

I didn't bother reading that original thread, but it boggles the mind that this stupid "forcible rape" expression made its way into the vocabulary of some. Rape is rape.

There is also statutory rape, where a "victim" can be more than willing. Young folks have been known to lie through their teeth about their age in a fit of rutting frenzy, some even having fake I.D. to back up their claim of majority.

There is a huge difference between using knockout drops or violence to initiate sex and having a very consensual encounter where one of the participants happens to be jail bait (she's HOW old?!!! No WAY!).

The age of consent varies greatly, dependent upon venue, so what is a Class A Felony in one jurisdiction is True Love in another. The age of consent in PA is sixteen, so "fifteen will get you twenty."

That's why the "forcible" part of rape is emphasized- it matters.


BSBD,

Winsor

[Kennedy 0]

Not quite. The definition of rape varies state to state, but the important factors are sexual intercourse without consent. Nonconsensual sex is rape. Force is not an element of rape. Using force just make its that much worse.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[winsor 236]

Kennedy

Not quite. The definition of rape varies state to state, but the important factors are sexual intercourse without consent. Nonconsensual sex is rape. Force is not an element of rape. Using force just make its that much worse.

"Nonconsensual" can mean that one party has not yet achieved the age of consent. Their participation in sex is thus grounds for statutory rape.

Forcing an underage person to have sex against their will is forcible rape.

My point is that there is a difference between the two.

[Arvoitus 1]

Question for all the rape is rape people, how quickly does a man become a rapist after the word 'no' is ushered, i.e. how many seconds does he has to pull out before he gets sent to jail to be ass raped by bubba?

Your rights end where my feelings begin.

[Skyrad 0]

WTF???? Rape is rape, no means no , end of. No excuses, no justification, if she says stop after saying yes you f'king well stop.

Rapists deserve to f'king hang.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[promise5 17]

What do people think of "rape sexual fantasies ".My opinion is they contribute to the problem. Never ever understood them!

No matter how slowly you say oranges it never sounds like gullible.
Believe me I tried.

[mistercwood 287]

kallend

***

Quote

Rape is rape

Except for when it's only rape in retrospect

Wendy P.

Is that when you pay the hooker with counterfeit $20 bills?

I'm no lawyer, but I think that would be closer to shoplifting.

On a more serious note, I agree with Wendy that the biggest grey area is the retrospective situation. This unfortunately muddies the waters for those who believe they have been raped, go to report it then get advised that hey maybe they're mistaken, maybe it was consensual, do you really want to ruin this guys life forever? Are you sure it happened the way you say it did? Then there's doubt, and second guessing, charges get dropped and it's fucked. Attached is a simple infographic on rape to conviction ratios. If you'll excuse me, I'm off to have a very, very hot shower...

You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly.

[kelpdiver 2]

lot of presumptions behind that graphic.

[Arvoitus 1]

kelpdiver

lot of presumptions behind that graphic.

Well it seems to be based on the feminist rape fantasy of all-the-women-are-being-raped-all-the-time-by-all-the-men-but-they-just-don't-report-it.

Your rights end where my feelings begin.

[mistercwood 287]

kelpdiver

lot of presumptions behind that graphic.

You could follow the link at the bottom of the graphic, more info on the data used. I think they were a little on the sensationalist side for their chosen reporting percentage, but even the conservative end of the scale there is pretty horrific. One thing to bear in mind - the data obtained regarding charges/convictions refers to "forcible" rape only.

You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly.

[mistercwood 287]

Arvoitus

***lot of presumptions behind that graphic.

Well it seems to be based on the feminist rape fantasy of all-the-women-are-being-raped-all-the-time-by-all-the-men-but-they-just-don't-report-it.

I don't subscribe to that theory, but can you name another major crime where the victim is blamed more often than not? When society moves away from that attitude, I'm sure the feminists will ease off a bit...

You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly.

[jclalor 12]

Keep in mind that some members of a certain political party would not classify a woman being a rape victim at all until a conviction. They would make it the law to label her as "the accuser" no matter how much evidence exist that she was violently raped.

Almost the same as Sharia law.

[popsjumper 2]

So, presumption of innocence doesn't apply in some cases. I didn't know that.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239