College costs and student debt

[kallend 2,027]

opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/12/student-debt-and-the-crushing-of-the-american-dream/

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

[Quote]We should cut off federal support for these for-profit schools when they fail to graduate students, who don’t get jobs and then default on their loans.

To its credit, the Obama administration tried to make it tougher for these predatory schools to lure students with false promises.

Non-profit schools are expensive. State institutions are expensive. The price of higher education has skyrocketed. And why?

Because of two things: (1) the encouragement of higher education; and (2) government backing of student loans.

Anybody out there want to go to college? Here you go! Want grad school? Here's $130k. The federal government will help you. Can't afford it? That's why we're here. The prospects for a career afterward with that art degree will leave you unable to pay back? No problem.

Price is no object for anyone in education because loans will be there. Fewer than ten years ago, price was no object for a house. Hence house prices skyrocketed because anybody could get a loan regardless of affordability. Education is the same way, only instead of Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac we have the federal student loan.

Good intentions resulting in runaway inflation.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[jgoose71 0]

SHHHHH!!!!!!

I think I heard Kallend say something about taking a pay cut for the good of the students.....

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[sfzombie13 324]

the thing i hate the most is the "adjusted for inflation" bullshit. i can't compare costs from 1980 to now with that "adjustment". it's just another bunch of crap to make it look worse than it really is. first of all, the average of $22000 a year is just flat out wrong, i am going back to wv state university, the cost is $660 per class, and at 3 classes per quarter, and 4 quarters per year, this works out to $7980 per year. add books onto that and you'll come up a lot less than that. now, i am sure that there are more expensive schools out there, how else would you get averages. simple solution: go to a cheaper school.

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[Channman 2]

"...Like the housing crisis that preceded it, this crisis is intimately connected to America’s soaring inequality, and how, as Americans on the bottom rungs of the ladder strive to climb up, they are inevitably pulled down — some to a point even lower than where they began."

Well I probably have no business getting involved in this discussion. I have no degree, never completed college, primarily was too busy making a living and the cost even back in the early 80's was to costly at the time for me.
The statement above in the article concerning inequality, bottom rungs of the ladder, inevitably pulled down, to me is a bunch of Bullshit. Was I equal to my peers, hell no, was I at the bottom of the ladder, damn near, but I never was inevitably pulled down by lack of money or social status.

Is a college degree over rated? Sometimes I think so, but for me I wish I had struggled through it because I feel I missed out on a very great experience in my life. I am however very lucky in that my wife and I have done very well financially and are more than likely in the top 5% of income earners. I work with several engineers that have student loans that exceed 100K, that is a heavy burden to bare when you saddle that dept with a mortgage, marriage, children, retirement....

There are High Schools in my area that exceed 500 million in construction cost after you add in the Stadium, tracks, tennis courts, baseball fields...maybe just maybe the rising cost of education has nothing to do with education itself, but the lavish buildings and mega-million dollar stadiums we deem to be so important.

[jgoose71 0]

Well, maybe that's how you go to college, but there are a few more things that should be factored in:

Most of your reputable colleges will charge you 3 semester hours per class. A typical full time college student is considered 12 hours or 4 classes. A lot of colleges are now saying that some of there classes are 4-5 semester hours to gouge some of there students.

You are obviously being charged a "residents" rate for a mid level school. Under graduate schools will charge less than graduate schools, and Ivy league schools are through the roof. If you attend an Ivy league school as a non-resident, prepare to get ass raped....

A lot of the younger kids will also get dorm rooms and meals added to the bill. They don't realize how quickly all these little things add up. Couple that with partying instead of getting a job and it's a recipe for disaster.

Now add that they are getting a degree in a field that only pays $30,000.00 a year. They will never get it payed off. The schools don't care. They just see the tuition dollars rolling in. It's not like anyone looks at the loans. Student loans can't be forgiven when you file for bankruptcy. So they lend the money knowing that they will get it back whether or not they have to take it out of your hide.

And colleges won't lower their tuition. Why should they? Society tells everyone they need to go to college to make it, and the government keeps giving out the loans. And the colleges need to have there expensive marble foyers and the teachers need their 6 and 7 figure salaries. Most colleges are as money hungry and corrupt as most businesses.

Case in point, ask Kallend how much he makes. I have no idea, but I'm sure it's well above the American average...

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[DrewEckhardt 0]

lawrocket

Because of two things: (1) the encouragement of higher education; and (2) government backing of student loans.

and (3) special corporatist laws that prohibit discharge of student loans in bankruptcy which allow private lenders to profit from loans that otherwise don't make sense.

Instead of

"$100K of our money towards a $200K photography degree? Forget it - you'll never make a living, will tire of working two jobs living at home with your parents, will declare bankruptcy, and we won't get our money back!"

it's

"Sure we'll spot you the six figure loan!"

where

"You'll live with your parents until you're fifty, drive the same car you have now, and work as many jobs as it takes until we get our money back plus healthy profits"

goes unsaid.

They need to get rid of that and score education borrowers like they do home buyers.

[Southern_Man 0]

jgoose71

Under graduate schools will charge less than graduate schools, and Ivy league schools are through the roof. If you attend an Ivy league school as a non-resident, prepare to get ass raped....

Ivy League schools are all private (well, Cornell is a bit of a weird hybrid) so residency status is irrelevant. Many of the Ivies have such massive endowments and great need based financial aide packages that they are truly one of the best options for lower class and lower middle class students in terms of affordability.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[Channman 2]

Who in their right mind would spend 200K to get a Photography degree? Are there actual individuals that are doing this?

If I'm spending 200K on an education...I would have already determined my career path to ensure I'm going to make a damn good living, and the payoff will far out weigh the cost of my student loan.

Maybe someone needs to intervene in these peoples lives and help them come to reality that maybe being a photographer who has to live with mommy and daddy is not the best investment of time and money.

Next somebody is going to post about a degree program in Home ed.

[billvon 2,998]

>Who in their right mind would spend 200K to get a Photography degree?

Someone who wants a career in photography?

[lawrocket 3]

[Reply]nd (3) special corporatist laws that prohibit discharge of student loans in bankruptcy

[Channman 2]

billvon

>Who in their right mind would spend 200K to get a Photography degree?

Someone who wants a career in photography?

Well I hope they focus on their career and not the 200K debt that came with it.

[kelpdiver 2]

billvon

>Who in their right mind would spend 200K to get a Photography degree?

Someone who wants a career in photography?

they don't need a degree for it. (and if they did, it probably should be in business, not photography. In this world with D800s and 5DIIIs for 3k, there are more "pro" photographers than lawyers. )

I'm not sure there are many 4 year degrees. I'm sure there are many 1 year Art programs that cost 30-50k...also a very bad investment.

[billvon 2,998]

>they don't need a degree for it.

Well, you don't "need" a degree for anything. I was building PC's before I went to college. But it definitely helps. And if you know that's what you want to do, being well prepared to do it doesn't hurt.

[kelpdiver 2]

billvon

>they don't need a degree for it.

Well, you don't "need" a degree for anything. I was building PC's before I went to college. But it definitely helps. And if you know that's what you want to do, being well prepared to do it doesn't hurt.

you "need" a degree for a lot of jobs. Many Fortune 500 companies would ignore any non grads, even in realms like IT where there is limited justification.

But when you hire a photographer, are you looking for a diploma or his portfolio? Same with any other type of artist. You can study it at a university if you wished to become a teacher of it, or because you were doing the gotta go to college mindset, but to be a commercial artist, that 200k could be better spent on equipment and on travelling to locations. (Pictures of lions at the zoo != ones in the Serengeti)

[kallend 2,027]

jgoose71

SHHHHH!!!!!!

I think I heard Kallend say something about taking a pay cut for the good of the students.....

Do a little research. Faculty salaries are a rather small slice of the pie.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,027]

billvon

>they don't need a degree for it.

Well, you don't "need" a degree for anything. I was building PC's before I went to college. But it definitely helps. And if you know that's what you want to do, being well prepared to do it doesn't hurt.

Rather hard to become a licensed physician without a degree. Or a licensed structural engineer.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Channman 2]

kallend

***>they don't need a degree for it.

Well, you don't "need" a degree for anything. I was building PC's before I went to college. But it definitely helps. And if you know that's what you want to do, being well prepared to do it doesn't hurt.

Rather hard to become a licensed physician without a degree. Or a licensed structural engineer.

This article just appeared on the Drude Report. Just a little quote from the article or maybe it's a book review "Is College Worth It?"

“Is College Worth It?” provides a thoroughgoing deconstruction of the “of course it is” delusion. It turns out that for too many, and maybe even most of our young people, the answer to this central question is, sadly, “no.” “Whether the standard of excellence for higher education is cultivating the mind and the soul or maximizing financial return on investment, most of higher education fails most students,” the authors write.

College has simply become too expensive. In the time between when I graduated from college and when my kids will start in a couple of years, the price differential, adjusting for inflation, has jumped 300 percent. When I went to college, my parents just wanted me to follow my muse, develop my mind and be happy. This led to my getting a doctorate — and to everyone’s surprise, I somehow figured out how to make a good living. However, a bachelor of arts degree in political science at a price of more than $150,000 now seems like a bad life choice. Somewhere during the past 25 years, the idea of following your muse in college got killed.

What killed it is explained by the “Bennett Hypothesis,” which by now should be elevated to the status of a theory or a law: “College tuition will rise as long as the amount of money available through federal student aid continues to increase with little or no accountability.”

Awash in taxpayer-subsidized money, colleges offer their discerning-lifestyle consumers every possible amenity: wired dorms, state-of-the-art workout facilities, beautiful grounds and Zagat-worthy dining. Teachers teach less and research more. The person who is probably teaching your kid is not a tenured rock star, but a galley slave grad student who is paid so little that he or she qualifies for welfare assistance. It also bankrolls an ever-growing middle management of deans and directors. And let’s not forget the high six- and seven-figure salaries of college presidents. We have created a subprime higher-education bubble, and Mr. Bennett and Mr. Wilezol aim to let some of the air of out it.


Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/may/14/book-review-is-college-worth-it/#ixzz2TIgUtVpg
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter

[billvon 2,998]

>you "need" a degree for a lot of jobs. Many Fortune 500 companies would ignore any non grads

Yes. If you want to get a specific job that has specific requirements you need those requirements. Sometimes it's a specific degree, sometimes it's a certification, sometimes it's how strong you are, sometimes it's even just how you look or what your voice sounds like. If you don't have those qualifications you can't get that specific job.

But if you just want to do engineering, or art, or science, or even medicine, you don't need a degree. I recently hired a guy who hadn't even finished high school and he was a great find for my company.

If you want that MD or PhD after your name, of course, you do need the degree. And overall it helps a lot if you know what you want to do - because education prepares you to do it.

[sfzombie13 324]

kelpdiver

you "need" a degree for a lot of jobs. Many Fortune 500 companies would ignore any non grads, even in realms like IT where there is limited justification.

i would have to disagree with you on the it part of this. if you have a ccna, ccnp, and 5 -7 years of experience, you can write your own ticket in networking. and if you have a cissp, or are a qsa, asv, or psv licensed, you can command over 6 figures to start. and all that without any type of degree. of course, that requires real world experience, and it's a felony to get that experience without the proper authorization.

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[livendive 8]

sfzombie13

the thing i hate the most is the "adjusted for inflation" bullshit. i can't compare costs from 1980 to now with that "adjustment". it's just another bunch of crap to make it look worse than it really is. first of all, the average of $22000 a year is just flat out wrong, i am going back to wv state university, the cost is $660 per class, and at 3 classes per quarter, and 4 quarters per year, this works out to $7980 per year. add books onto that and you'll come up a lot less than that. now, i am sure that there are more expensive schools out there, how else would you get averages. simple solution: go to a cheaper school.

That's incredibly cheap. My wife recently started pursuing a new career and is knocking out the generic pre-req's at a local community college to the tune of $600/class plus books, and that's in-state at a school that doesn't offer bachelor degrees.

I'm currently a grad student at the University of Washington, a state school, at which I pay in-state rates. My cost per quarter, taking two classes at a time, is about $4,800 not including books or living expenses or anything like that. The fact that I can continue my full-time employment (despite a LOT less sleep) makes this worthwhile. I have about 20 years of career left before retirement...if a graduate degree gets me even 2% more money, or avoids a couple months of unemployment, it'll pay for itself. I like to think it'll do more than that.

My daughter is about to start grad school at the University of Wyoming. They originally waived her out-of-state pricing, and it would have been more like your $700/class, except she was informed last week that she's been given an assistantship. So her tuition is waived and they'll pay her $900/month to study there. With 5 classes some quarters and assistantship duties on top of that, she'll be far too busy to have another job, so the gap in her living expenses will have to be made up by some combination of me and loans.

In short - tuition varies widely by state, school, and program. The key is finding the one that works best for your goals.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[kelpdiver 2]

sfzombie13

***

you "need" a degree for a lot of jobs. Many Fortune 500 companies would ignore any non grads, even in realms like IT where there is limited justification.

i would have to disagree with you on the it part of this. if you have a ccna, ccnp, and 5 -7 years of experience, you can write your own ticket in networking. and if you have a cissp, or are a qsa, asv, or psv licensed, you can command over 6 figures to start. and all that without any type of degree. of course, that requires real world experience, and it's a felony to get that experience without the proper authorization.

I'm not saying you can't get an IT job without a (n irrelevant) degree. I'm saying that for a lot of jobs out there, candidate resumes without a degree will be ignored, even in the Bay Area. Some companies (over) value the degree.

[OHCHUTE 0]

It appears no one sees the main point... Wall street. There is a trillion dollar college debt security business behind rising college tuition prices! And it's a huge bubble that will burst once tuition is no longer is affordable and when kids stop paying loans. It's already happening. There are two college grads in the neighborhood who can't find jobs and, the loan sharks can't collect when the kids aren't working. Plus, if you're not taking math or physics you're pretty much dead in the water with a liberal arts degree...... Liberal arts.... funny...

[billvon 2,998]

>Plus, if you're not taking math or physics you're pretty much dead in the water
>with a liberal arts degree......

Top ten happiest occupations per Forbes:

Clergy
Firefighters
Physical therapists
Authors
Special ed teachers
Primary school teachers
Artists
Psychologists
Financial services specialists
Operating engineers (think Homer Simpson)

Lots of liberal arts types.

Also keep in mind that it's very easy to replace grunt engineers and programmers. (Most of my value I give to my company comes out of the right side of my brain, not my left.) It's a lot harder to outsource a good writer.

[jgoose71 0]

kallend

***SHHHHH!!!!!!

I think I heard Kallend say something about taking a pay cut for the good of the students.....

Do a little research. Faculty salaries are a rather small slice of the pie.

Yes, I'm sure that $100-$200K Salary is small compared to a $500 Million budget... 1%er...

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything