Is there any truth to this?

[billvon 3,072]

>Winner's picked by government...

Are they people? Companies? Branches of the military?

>even if the numbers in the video are correct, what is the point?

Mainly that there's much more income disparity in this country than most people think. The primary point was that people think the country should be more "level" than it is, they think that it's pretty lopsided now, but it is far, far more lopsided than even those people think it is.

>We are not a Free Market Republic any more...

?? You mean we don't have very rich and very poor people any more? If free market means "make as much or as little as you want" we have more of a free market republic now than we ever did.

>the fundamental transformations since the beginning of the Progressive Era are.

Hmm. Some of those transformations were:

-Reducing corruption in government
-Giving women the right to vote
-Allowing democratic election of Senators (instead of by state politicians)
-Prohibition (since gotten rid of)
-Democratic ballot measures (i.e. direct democracy; people instead of legislatures voting on ballot measures)
-Black rights
-Education; before the Progressive Era most kids in the US didn't go to high school
-Juvenile courts so that young kids weren't treated the same as adult criminals

Would you want to undo them? (other than prohibition, which has already been "undone")

[wmw999 2,537]

Quote

Interesting article on a UC Berkeley study:

http://nymag.com/news/features/money-brain-2012-7/index5.html

That was really interesting -- and if anyone is wondering, it covers a whole lot more than a Berkeley study, and is nuanced and not one-sided. Well worth reading.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kallend 2,106]

ManagingPrime

******All men are created equal. After that all bets are off. I have no real problem with the distribution. Have you seen how much athletes make? How about pop stars? We all want to point our fingers and say that its wrong yet we contribute wholly to the problem.

Put ten men in a room, and give each man ten thousand dollars. At the end of the day, someone will be poor.

That's not how the system works though...it's how people like to think it works.

Interesting article on a UC Berkeley study:

http://nymag.com/news/features/money-brain-2012-7/

fascinating.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[champu 1]

wmw999

Quote

Interesting article on a UC Berkeley study:

http://nymag.com/news/features/money-brain-2012-7/index5.html

That was really interesting -- and if anyone is wondering, it covers a whole lot more than a Berkeley study, and is nuanced and not one-sided. Well worth reading.

Wendy P.

I agree, definitely worth reading.

[rickjump1 0]

kallend

*********All men are created equal. After that all bets are off. I have no real problem with the distribution. Have you seen how much athletes make? How about pop stars? We all want to point our fingers and say that its wrong yet we contribute wholly to the problem.

Put ten men in a room, and give each man ten thousand dollars. At the end of the day, someone will be poor.

That's not how the system works though...it's how people like to think it works.

Interesting article on a UC Berkeley study:

http://nymag.com/news/features/money-brain-2012-7/

fascinating. Fascinating? It has the old aroma of wealth envy. You must be taking a long look at some of your former students who are now wealthy and proud of their monetary accomplishments. Never forget all the jobs they have created, nor all the taxes they have paid.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[wmw999 2,537]

I have enough money, both earned and not. I found the article to be interesting, too. It presents data, not opinions. The fact that data doesn't agree with your preconceptions doesn't change the data. It might say something about your preconceptions.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[ManagingPrime 0]

rickjump1

************All men are created equal. After that all bets are off. I have no real problem with the distribution. Have you seen how much athletes make? How about pop stars? We all want to point our fingers and say that its wrong yet we contribute wholly to the problem.

Put ten men in a room, and give each man ten thousand dollars. At the end of the day, someone will be poor.

That's not how the system works though...it's how people like to think it works.

Interesting article on a UC Berkeley study:

http://nymag.com/news/features/money-brain-2012-7/

fascinating. Fascinating? It has the old aroma of wealth envy. You must be taking a long look at some of your former students who are now wealthy and proud of their monetary accomplishments. Never forget all the jobs they have created, nor all the taxes they have paid.

I did not perceive an envious tone. One of the researchers admited to his prejudices, but the results speak for themselves.

The studies, I think, will help people better understand income/wealth inequalities that exist. It's simply untrue that everyone has equal opportunities. Additionally, the study provides some evidence that "money changes people" to some degree. I don't think the idea is to demonize the wealthy, if it was I would definitely be airing my misgivings. I do think this line of study could in some small way be useful in designing more sustainable economic systems in the future.

Anywho...I found it interesting and pretty unbiased considering the subject matter.

[BigMark 1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkhX5W7JoWI

[champu 1]

I do think part of the problem is that you presented the article in response to the "ten men in a room" scenario with the statement "that's not how the system works."

I think the observation that people are different and that money, distributed equally or otherwise, will find its way into the hands of people in correspondingly different quantities is present in both the scenario and the article.

[Bignugget 0]

airdvr

I'm wondering what effect government programs have on this graph. I suspect if you're on the bottom it's alot more difficult to move up and walk away from the entitlements.

Right.

Im sure they are like... "man, I WOULD be rich as fuck like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet, but if I do that I won't get my 200 a month in food stamps."

[Bertt 0]

There are a number of things you can do to improve this situation, for yourself and others. Have you written your state and federal legislators with a clear, simple message they can act on? Not "please make things better", but "please vote for (or against) bill H.R. xxxx" or something equally specific.
Do you use a credit card? If you carry a balance and pay interest on it, you're making Jamie Dimon richer and yourself poorer. My dealings with banks are a game - if I pay interest to the bank, I lose; if the bank pays me interest, I win.
Do you look at the country of origin when you buy stuff? I know it's not always possible, but sometimes you buy things that were made by American workers.
I appreciate your praise of the community college system. I've done some math tutoring at our local c.c. With your skills, you could help teach people in the community to make better decisions in their own lives.
There are some things you can do. They're small, but they can help.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[ManagingPrime 0]

champu

I do think part of the problem is that you presented the article in response to the "ten men in a room" scenario with the statement "that's not how the system works."

I think the observation that people are different and that money, distributed equally or otherwise, will find its way into the hands of people in correspondingly different quantities is present in both the scenario and the article.

I was a little lazy.

In regards to the "ten men" scenario;

I think that a lot of people perceive our system to work that way, "everyone has equal opportunity" to gain wealth if that is their desire, etc.

The first page of the article discuses the UCB study using the Monopoly game. I think that scenario is a better representation of the system we currently reside in.

As an example, George Bush, Jr., he's a great example of someone who was born into this world with nearly every opportunity available to him. He could afford to make a number mistakes in his life and still become (arguably) the most powerful man in the world.

In theory, a child in this country, born into complete poverty COULD become president of the united states. In fact, I think every child in American public schools is told early on that they too COULD become president of the united states some day. It's true, they could, but they would have to play a flawless game and still need a good measure of luck.

By no means do I think that people who work hard, are naturally gifted in a particular area, follow the law, etc. should not receive their fair share of what life has to offer. However, I do think there is this pervasive notion that we all start out as equals and everyone plays in this system of meritocracy from there...it's simply untrue.

You're a smart guy. All other things being equal, if I gave you 1 million to invest and someone else who is equally smart 10 million to invest and another slightly less intelligent individual 100 million to invest, who is most probably going to come out at the top of the heap and who will most likely come out at the bottom?

My point was that we are not playing a game of poker where everyone at the table has the same buy in. I think the article supports that position.

In short, I don't hate the player, I hate the game.

[skydiver30960 0]

Bertt

There are some things you can do. They're small, but they can help.

Thanks for the suggestions! The ball is rolling on a couple of them already, but... Writing more letters and getting more involved in (local, at least) politics is something I need to do.


WARNING, THREAD DRIFT!: Your comment about watching country of origin on products purchased is one of my hot topics. I know that we'll never get a major chain to go back to "Made in the USA only in our store!" but I think it would be awesome if they made a different looking price tag for products made in the USA and overseas. This seems win-win to me: it allows them to keep the cheap crap on their shelves so the store doesn't feel it is going to lose customer base, but it also allows a discriminating shopper to more easily shop for U.S. made merchandise.


Elvisio "next CEO of Walmart" Rodriguez

[airdvr 210]

Quote

Writing more letters and getting more involved in (local, at least) politics is something I need to do.

Good. Just be prepared to be disappointed.

You needn't look much further than stories like this to see where the problem lies. Who gives someone a $750,000 car for their birthday? And why is it newsworthy?

http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/05/15/kanye-wests-lamborghini-trapped-in-kim-kardashians-electric-gate/?hpt=hp_t3

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[champu 1]

I think the article was a bit of a Rorschach test. A study of human behavior is exactly that, the results tell you how you might expect people to behave given certain circumstances. What that means in terms of the current distribution of wealth, setting of policy, or institution/adjustment of a system of government, well... it's not always productive to confront low-level human behavior head-on (See: abstinence as a form of birth control or disease prevention.)

As an aside, I thought it was funny when the article talked about preference for uniqueness and individuation amongst the well to do. That finding predicts the reaction you can expect when you present it to an affluant person. What could be more crushing to someone who wants more than anything to be unique, than telling them that their behavior is completely predictable?

[ManagingPrime 0]

champu

... it's not always productive to confront low-level human behavior head-on...

Boy is that an understatement!

That said, I think it's very possible for "that guy" to read studies like this and say, "Oh, yeah. I can see that behavior pattern....In that other guy."

Some confrontation is good I think. I've got "that guy" in my office. Just this morning he was confronted...not pretty, but my belief is that you are doing a disservice to some people if you just allow them to exist in their own illusions....productive though...not really. LOL

[billvon 3,072]

>What could be more crushing to someone who wants more than anything to be
>unique, than telling them that their behavior is completely predictable?

One need look no further than high schools, to kids who adopt the uniforms of nonconformity.

[popsjumper 2]

Bignugget

***I'm wondering what effect government programs have on this graph. I suspect if you're on the bottom it's alot more difficult to move up and walk away from the entitlements.

Right.

Im sure they are like... "man, I WOULD be rich as fuck like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet, but if I do that I won't get my 200 a month in food stamps."

I'n betting it's more like...

"If I take a chance on moving up I might not make it as well as I'd like and I'd lose my parachute."

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

billvon

>What could be more crushing to someone who wants more than anything to be
>unique, than telling them that their behavior is completely predictable?

One need look no further than high schools, to kids who adopt the uniforms of nonconformity.

"I'm a non-conformist!
So is that guy...and that one..and that girl...
*Hey! Wait a minute here."


*Implies a level of maturity not yet achieved by the vast majority of "non-conformists".

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[champu 1]

If I was offered a choice between orange and green pens I would take one of each, scribble a little with both of them and keep the one with darker ink because it's easier to read...

...and then I would explain my decision in an unsolicited fashion to the person conducting the experiment.

[Ianjames 0]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okHGCz6xxiw



Edit >Can someone make this clickable?

[CanuckInUSA 0]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okHGCz6xxiw

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over