Former NSA contractor Snowden leaves Hong Kong for Moscow

[normiss 798]

Problem is the acts they did ARE currently legal for them to do given the expansion of the Patriot Act.
While I don't agree with them, I would never consider violating a legal agreement to protect the information I am paid to administer.
There are consequences for those actions.

I expect that someday, Mr. Snowden will understand that.

[NorrinRadd 0]

normiss

Problem is the acts they did ARE currently legal for them to do given the expansion of the Patriot Act.
While I don't agree with them, I would never consider violating a legal agreement to protect the information I am paid to administer.
There are consequences for those actions.

I expect that someday, Mr. Snowden will understand that.

Personally I think the consequences should be paid by the state. And while you may not violate a legal agreement to protect an act you feel acts against your judgment, he did. Which is one of the things that makes the two of you different!

Sometimes the law is unjust. I don't see a good reason to defend an unjust law. Just my 2 cents.

Why drive myself crazy trying to be normal, when I am already at crazy?

[normiss 798]

Good luck with that!

Just ask all the pot smokers in the US!
The 99%'ers!

Just because you disagree with a law does not add support to ignoring it and flat out breaking it.

[NorrinRadd 0]

normiss

Good luck with that!

Just ask all the pot smokers in the US!
The 99%'ers!

Just because you disagree with a law does not add support to ignoring it and flat out breaking it.

Actually, it does! If I feel a law is unjust, and works against the common good, or is unethical, I will be fine in breaking it. In fact, I believe it is necessary to question the acts of the state. If we don't, we allow the state to do as it will, and that can bring us closer to a fully totalitarian government, like the Soviet Union. Better to resist it as much as possible. It is the more dangerous way.. the state has a lot of power... but it is also the morally better way. Both the US and Canada are predicated on the freedoms of their people. But it is still up to the people to fight for that freedom, even if it is the state that is becoming the enemy.

Edit:
Agh! I must stop.. sorry. It has been a good discussion. OK on to other things :) Be well!

Why drive myself crazy trying to be normal, when I am already at crazy?

[melch 1]

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now, the last time i checked, the 4th amendment prohibited illegal search and seizure. and i have also heard that the govt is not supposed to be allowed to record your telephone calls (if you're a citizen of the us) without a court order. but i may be wrong about this, i have not researched it, nor am i a lawyer. and we all know that just being able to read is not the way the law works.

You are correct, the Constitution prohibits objective illegal search and seirzures...unfortunately as I stated it is perfectly legal because of the sources I provided earlier and it does not violate the constitution.

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i am truly sorry that you feel like the govt is following the constitution, or that you may feel that it is ok for them to do this to us. the whole purpose of the oversight and checks and balances designed into the constitution is so that we can prevent shit like this.

FISA (Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978) enacted after Watergate, outlines acceptable scenarios for electronic surveillance has been found constitutional in 2 supreme court cases...so it doesn't really matter what I think because the checks and balances already had their say.

[melch 1]

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In reply to:
.

Please find substantial proof that anything the NSA has done anything to violate the Constitutional rights of the American people

And be caught up facing charges of espionage? Do you understand the Catch-22 that government policy has created? "Show us proof that we are doing anything Unconstitutional. If you do, then you are in possession of and have published secrets affecting national security. That makes you a traitor and you will be punished."

If you can tell me how any proof can be provided without the person supplying such proof facing a substantial penalty I'd like you to tell us. It is this Catch-22 that bothers me the most. Supplying those facts equals sedition. It equals espionage.

The Espionage Act creates a culture of secrecy. Want to expand? Increase the list of things that are tagged "secret" and gro some more. Doing unwarranted wiretaps? That's a secret program, and if anyone discusses or discloses those wiretaps then that's a jailin'!

Yeah. Provide substantial evidence that there is a secret program that nobody knows about. I'm sure you understand the practical difficulties with it.

The problem is: we have these suspicions and I cannot consider them to be without merit.

Hadn't really thought about this. Interesting point, I'll have to do some research and get back to you.

[sfzombie13 324]

you are just straight wrong on the first part of this, it is unconstitutional, it just will never go to the scotus to find this out, due to "national security".

and as for the fisa, it does not allow for the wholesale recording of telephone records of us citizens without cause. of course, there is no way to know that, seeing as how all the cases that went before the fisc are classified and will not be released.

i cannot believe that there are any citizens who think that it is ok for the govt to do this. it just amazes me.

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[Nelyubin 0]

Guys, it isn't necessary to speak about which things you didn't see.
I don't know bigger freedom for the person than that freedom which the Soviet Union gave to the citizens.
You even now have no right of direct elections of the president. As whom are you considered by the government? Cattle?

[Skyrad 0]

SORM-2 Also you have a right to vote for the President (so long as its a choice between Putin or Putin) Jog on.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Nelyubin 0]

It not Soviet Union.
These are results of joint activity of Yeltsin and Bush.
Fruits of "the American democracy" ;)

At Putin the pension size on age increased by 14 times. Who won't vote for such president?
In how many time the pension increased at Abama? ;)

[NorrinRadd 0]

Nelyubin

Guys, it isn't necessary to speak about which things you didn't see.
I don't know bigger freedom for the person than that freedom which the Soviet Union gave to the citizens.
You even now have no right of direct elections of the president. As whom are you considered by the government? Cattle?

When children are told to report to the authorities on the activities of their parents, freedom is non-existent. Freedom to do what you are told is no freedom at all.

Why drive myself crazy trying to be normal, when I am already at crazy?

[Nelyubin 0]

Once again.
Arguments with which you try to appeal aren't familiar to you. You shouldn't do it.

[Andy9o8 2]

In soviet Russia, President elects you.

[NorrinRadd 0]

Nelyubin

Once again.
Arguments with which you try to appeal aren't familiar to you. You shouldn't do it.

Hah! You know next to nothing about my personal experiences. Next!

Why drive myself crazy trying to be normal, when I am already at crazy?

[melch 1]

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you are just straight wrong on the first part of this,

Feel free to keep thinking that.

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and as for the fisa, it does not allow for the wholesale recording of telephone records of us citizens without cause

From what I've been able to research they werent recording wholesale converations just numbers contacted but I could be wrong and will never know becuase I clearly dont' have access to the program. Regardless, as I stated earlier, all they need is suspcicion, mission and purpose
Mission: To defend freedom, 'Merica, democracy, yada yada
Purpose: Detect foreign terrorist group contacts within the US or whatever other monkey poo you wanna throw at the wall and it happens to stick
It really is that easy with the right authority level, thank you fearmongering and the patriot act.

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and as for the fisa, it does not allow for the wholesale recording of telephone records of us citizens without cause. of course,

You mistake me. I'm objectively defending it because of what is allowed by EOs, US Codes, Laws, FISA, etc. but I don't necessarily think that it is ok but I would be more concerned if it was affecting day to day life or being used as a political suppression tool but scanning phone records generating information to develop networks of people intending to do others harm hardly hurts my feelings.

[Nelyubin 0]

Why to know something about you?
Your words speak for you.

[sfzombie13 324]

according to some articles i have read on arstechnica and a couple of others from facebook posts, it looks like we may be getting a look at some secrets after all. a judge allowed that 5 year old case to go on by throwing out the govt objection due to state secrets. and another that said how it used to be a lot broader, and it took a year for the ig to get clearance to look at it.

and some of the first articles that came out said they kept the data for 5 years and only listened to the contents when authorized, implying they could listen to any of it at any time.

and as for not affecting you or day to day life, all you have to do is look back to the old quote (i can't remember it exactly) about the guy that didn't say anything when they came and took all this stuff, then there was nobody left. i firmly support full and complete equality to every legal citizen of the us, and the only way to even start to achieve this is by following the constitution. there are times i concede it is necessary to maintain state secrets, just not in all cases with no oversight or balances.

and it looks as if the courts are starting to agree with me and millions of other americans. one can only hope, we have been losing our liberties for some time.

and i found a comment on another thread, "a whistleblower exposes malfeasance, a traitor attempts to undermine his country"

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[Nelyubin 0]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23283684
Conference translation on the air is expected.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22836419

[Nelyubin 0]

I asked a political asylum in Russia.
I promised "not to harm any more to the USA".

The political asylum will be granted. I so think.
In vain the USA tried to put pressure upon Russia.

[normiss 798]

KGB take him off to a secret location for debriefings yet?

[Nelyubin 0]

You have very ancient information. KGB doesn't exist long ago.
Location who didn't hide. Transit zone of the Moscow airport Sheremetyevo.

[normiss 798]

Makes for great stories though!




Maybe he found out about the sewage rivers in Caracas.

[Nelyubin 0]

The Gordiyevsky gave out agents, Snowden didn't call any name.
Snowden simply showed that the USA arrives not as declares.

Snowden just defends the rights of U.S. citizens.
Gordiyevsky a traitor.

[ryoder 1,590]

I've wondered what is is like to be in Snowden's position.
Possible scenarios:

A) He wakes up every day in a quaint village, and every time he tries to leave, a large white balloon envelopes him and drags him back.

B) He wakes up every morning to a clock radio playing "I Got You, Babe", and finds he is still stuck in Sheremetyevo.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Nelyubin 0]

He wakes up to the beat of the Kremlin chimes. This is a fact.