Rubio weighs sponsorship of bill to end abortions after 20 weeks ON TOPIC ONLY

[BIGUN 1,316]

RUBIO ARTICLE

I'd like to know your opinion of "if" and "how" many weeks is acceptable for abortion?

Please stay on topic and on poll.
Please don't throw rocks at the poll, add or subtract variables, etc.
The poll is the poll.
Please don't derail or hijack the thread.
ON TOPIC DISCUSSION ONLY PLEASE

Other Times in the Development Cycle

Before 4 weeks from conception, a baby's eye, ear, and respiratory systems begin to form.

Before 9 weeks from conception, all the structures necessary for pain sensation are functioning.

Before 7 weeks from conception.- thumbsucking has been documented.

Before 8 weeks from conception, a baby's heartbeat can be detected by ultrasonic stethoscope.

Before 9 weeks from conception, a baby is able to bend her fingers around an object in her hand.

Before 11 to 12 weeks from conception, the baby is breathing fluid steadily and continues to do so until birth.

Before 11 weeks from conception, a baby can swallow.

Before 13 and 15 weeks from conception, a baby's taste buds are present and functioning.

Before 20 weeks, and perhaps as early as 16 weeks from conception, a baby is capable of hearing his mother's heartbeat and external noises like music.

Before 23 weeks from conception, babies have been shown to demonstrate rapid eye movements (REM), which are characteristic of active dream states.

Before six months from conception, a baby's oil and sweat glands are functioning.

Before seven months from conception, a baby frequently "exercises" in preparation for birth by stretching and kicking.

Before eight months from conception, a baby's skin begins to thicken, and swallows a gallon of amniotic fluid each day and often hiccups.

Before ninth month from conception, a baby gains half a pound per week. Of the 45 generations of cell divisions before adulthood, 41 have already taken place.

Please stay on topic and on poll.
Please don't throw rocks at the poll, add or subtract variables, etc.
The poll is the poll.
Please don't derail or hijack the thread.
ON TOPIC DISCUSSION ONLY PLEASE

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[JerryBaumchen 1,363]

Hi BIGUN,

Quote

ON TOPIC DISCUSSION ONLY PLEASE

I voted. For me, it is whenever the woman in question decides she does/does not want to have an abortion.

IMO it is her decision & only her decision.

JerryBaumchen

PS) IMO if men could get pregnant they would agree.

[davjohns 1]

I'm pretty sure I would disagree regardless of my ability to get pregnant.

At some point (that's what this poll is trying to evaluate), there is not just a woman's body involved. At some point, there are two people there. One of them just doesn't get a say in the matter. Then, there's the whole issue of the father's rights. So, ideally, there are three people involved in the choice. And still, one of them does not get to vote.

If the woman is a good person and the father is a dud, she gets the short end of the stick. Single parenting, stigma, endless legal battles to try to get support, etc.

If the man is a good person and the mother is a dud, she can abort his child without even discussing it. She can have the child and milk him for money for eighteen years while keeping him from having a solid relationship with the child. Endless legal battles, etc.

If both are duds, the child gets worked over by social services or well intentioned family members, neglected, etc.

To say that it is the woman's right to choose and everyone else should stay out of it is really trivializing a very difficult problem. Pretending that abortion is always wrong is the same. This just isn't a black and white issue. That's why it causes so much problem.

Consider this: the recent slavery (kidnapping doesn't seem harsh enough) case in Cleveland was sensational. Part of it involved the forced abortion of a pregnancy of one of the victims. Last I heard, the DA wants to charge that as murder. I have no problem with that. But we have to be careful. Is it murder when it is done against the mother's will and abortion when done according to her will? So, whether the child is human or not might depend on the mental / emotional state of the mother?

I can't buy that.

I can't tell you exactly when it becomes a person, so I prefer to err on the side of safety and call it early in the pregnancy. But I think it is clear that it is a person before it leaves the womb. That means it is entitled to some protection and not just subject to the mother's desires.

Obviously, there are lots of things that go into the decision and the mother who has to bear the burden has the largest vote. But at some point, she has made her decision and the child's rights come into play. And then there is the whole question of the father's rights that always seems to be ignored. I'll probably get flamed just for mentioning that, but it's still true.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[BIGUN 1,316]

Dave,

You've summed up my position on the matter far better than I have in the past. Thank you for taking the time to write.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[billvon 2,991]

When the fetus is viable outside the womb. At that point the only reason that's valid (IMO) is a medical reason; life or health of the mother or the life or health of another child (i.e. as in a selective reduction.) Another secondary consideration is the health of the fetus itself - if it is not likely to survive outside the womb very long (as in SMA Type 1 or thanatophoric dysplasia) then at least IMO there is no strong constraint against abortion up until delivery.

[wmw999 2,447]

This would be closest to my position. I realize that viability is a moving target, and that technology is moving it earlier, but technology has moved death, as well.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[livendive 8]

Your 11-12 week note implies something other than the truth, which is that lungs are not capable of gas exchange till somewhere in the 27-30 week range and rhythmic breathing motions don't begin till a couple weeks after that. The rare survival of a premature baby born prior to viable gas exchange through the lungs depends on life-supportive oxygen given through the umbilical cord.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[jclalor 12]

Quote

livendive"]Your 11-12 week note implies something other than the truth, which is that lungs are not capable of gas exchange till somewhere in the 27-30 week range and rhythmic breathing motions don't begin till a couple weeks after that. The rare survival of a premature baby born prior to viable gas exchange through the lungs depends on life-supportive oxygen given through the umbilical cord.

With Machines like ECMO, the need for gas exchange in the lungs of a premature infant may no longer matter. The only thing preventing their use now is the inability to cannulate the very small vessel of preterm under 2kg. It seems that no matter what age is placed on non-survivable age, technology will always find away to lower that number.

I like the 20 week number, unless the health of the mother or twin is at stake, then all bets are off.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extracorporeal_membrane_oxygenation

[Darius11 12]

I honestly don’t know. I just don’t. I leave to the mother because I know most people it’s not an easy decision, so I let them make the decision and deal with the consequences. I know it’s a copout but it’s something I cannot relate too AT ALL.

One thing I don’t get (this comes from my favorite comic (Doug Stanhope) but a very valid point) is if your against abortion and think it’s killing a life then how can you say except in cases of rape or insist?
Does the Childs life lose value if the dad is a bad person? I don’t get that. I see it as one of the options I would love someone who believes that to shed some light on it.


I picked before 18 days i just think the sooner the better. But please know i stand by that i know nothing for sure.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[kallend 2,027]

JerryBaumchen

Hi BIGUN,

Quote

ON TOPIC DISCUSSION ONLY PLEASE

I voted. For me, it is whenever the woman in question decides she does/does not want to have an abortion.

IMO it is her decision & only her decision.

JerryBaumchen

PS) IMO if men could get pregnant they would agree.

Agreed,

Rubio, and other right wingers, need to keep their noses out of the reproductive organs of women.

Is is simply none of their business.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[davjohns 1]

Darius11

One thing I don’t get (this comes from my favorite comic (Doug Stanhope) but a very valid point) is if your against abortion and think it’s killing a life then how can you say except in cases of rape or insist?

I think you almost answered your own question without realizing it. It isn't a black or white issue (like you seem to recognize). Rape (I don't differentiate for incest. It's still rape.) is a horribly traumatizing event. Prolonging it by forcing the victim to carry a reminder and go through the pain of childbirth with all the attendant mental anguish is just cruel. Given that the idea of 'when life begins' is a huge grey area, I can see how people would make allowances in cases of rape (provided the decision is made early on). Coupling our uncertainty as to when life begins with compassion for the victim makes us more willing to see her situation as one where abortion is the least offensive option. In my previous post, I mentioned the rights of the three people involved. Applying that to the case of rape: we are extremely sympathetic to the mothers needs, the father can go to hell, and the baby is hopefully still undeveloped enough that we can end it without adding more guilt to the situation.

At least that's my view. If the pro-life person is adamant that abortion is always wrong...except for rape...then I can't reconcile the two. But in my personal philosophy, it makes sense. There is a difficult balance of rights and responsibilities that moves as biology pushes the timeline along. Early in a pregnancy, with a traumatized mother and evil father, the biggest concern in my mind is the mother.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[Andy9o8 2]

Just to toss this out there, it seems to me, at its purest, that it's intellectually inconsistent for one to be staunchly anti-abortion on the grounds that the foetus is an innocent human life not responsible for the circumstances of its conception, and then make an exception for rape. I suspect that most staunchly anti-abortion people who make an exception for rape are doing so because instinctively, perhaps even subconsciously (or due to the indoctrination of socialization), they realize that their position would otherwise be politically untenable.

[BIGUN 1,316]

"is if your against abortion and think it’s killing a life then how can you say except in cases of rape or incest?"

Given the nature of the conception; the mother will generally have an abortion as early in the pregnancy as possible or some have chosen to carry the child until outside the womb. All within the parameters of both Pro-Choice and Pro-Life.

A couple of excerpts from one of the best articles citing both sides that I've read in a while.

Quote

Human beings develop at an astonishingly rapid pace. Giving a quick recitation of the child's development will weaken the "not a person yet" mentality.

The cardiovascular system is the first major system to function. At about 22 days after conception the child's heart begins to circulate his own blood, unique to that of his mother's, and his heartbeat can be detected on ultrasound.[14]

At just six weeks, the child's eyes and eye lids, nose, mouth, and tongue have formed.

Electrical brain activity can be detected at six or seven weeks,[15] and by the end of the eighth week, the child, now known scientifically as a "fetus," has developed all of his organs and bodily structures.[16]

By ten weeks after conception the child can make bodily movements.

Today, parents can see the development of their children with their own eyes. The obstetric ultra-sound done typically at 20 weeks gestation provides not only pictures but a real-time video of the active life of the child in the womb: clasping his hands, sucking his thumb, yawning, stretching, getting the hiccups, covering his ears to a loud sound nearby[17] -- even smiling.[18]

Quote

Be prepared to cite these and other public opinion polls from various organizations (the last bullet point is crucial, it means only a small minority of Americans agree with Roe):

61% of Americans say abortion should be illegal after the fetal heartbeat has begun,[29]which occurs in the first month of pregnancy.

72% of Americans say abortion should be illegal after the first 3 months of pregnancy.[30]

86% of Americans say abortion should be illegal after the first 6 months of pregnancy.[31]

Only 6% -17% of Americans (depending on how the question is asked and by whom) believe abortion should be legal at any time, in all circumstances.[32]

SOURCE: http://www.frc.org/brochure/the-best-pro-life-arguments-for-secular-audiences

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[BIGUN 1,316]

livendive

Your 11-12 week note implies something other than the truth, which is that lungs are not capable of gas exchange till somewhere in the 27-30 week range and rhythmic breathing motions don't begin till a couple weeks after that. The rare survival of a premature baby born prior to viable gas exchange through the lungs depends on life-supportive oxygen given through the umbilical cord.

Blues,
Dave

You'll note it was the "breathing of fluid."

Quote

Amniotic fluid is "inhaled" and "exhaled" by the fetus. At first it is mainly water with electrolytes, but by about the 12-14th week the liquid also contains proteins, carbohydrates, lipids and phospholipids, and urea, all of which aid in the growth of the fetus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amniotic_fluid

And yes, you are right that,

Quote

"At the end of this canalicular phase which is the beginning of the saccular phase (ca. 25 weeks) - a large part of the amniotic fluid is produced by the lung epithelium. From this time on, the maturity of the lungs can be measured clinically based on the activity of the type II pneumocytes, which begin to produce the surfactant. The ratio of lecithin to sphingomyelin in the amniotic fluid, which increases with fetal age is determined."http://www.embryology.ch/anglais/rrespiratory/phasen04.html

It was a semantic issue with the representation of "breathing" fluid vs. gas exchange.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.