More cop thuggery

[masterrig 1]

t's nuts, anymore! I guess, that's why I like living in a rural area. Law West of the Pecos!


Chuck

[Kennedy 0]

kelpdiver

***Your entire post is flat out wrong. If it is not, point to a study that claims someone in a sudden gunfight can control heartrate, breathing, digestion, pupil dialation, perspiration, and other sympathetic responses. Show a study that suggests auditory blocking, tunnel vision, and other autonomic nervous reactions are somehow instantly controllable. Then tell me how many shooters can be surprised with sudden combat an then hoot with pinpoint accuracy. Hint: even Navy Seals don't claim that kind of supernatural Jedi ability.

which is why they practice in live fire situations, or why FrontSight does a lot of timed drills. Accuracy when time is irrelevant has value, but it's not enough to just practice that way.

Likewise, you can train against your ability to handle stress. It doesn't prevent the physiological changes you speak of, but it does mitigate them to a degree.

Unless you have knowledge that this guy had extensive experience, I'm going to the gut call that he goes to the range as rarely as permitted.

Facts matter. Florida law enforcement firearms qualification:
http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/Content/getdoc/75909126-f582-4dad-909c-9c34dff428e7/CJSTC-086ADTD110807.aspx

I have no idea what else Escambia county offers its deputies above and beyond state law, or if he took any outside training, or how often he trained on his own, but you can't say he hasn't trained in timed exercises.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[swisschris62 0]

Scoring. The scoring shall be any hit that is inside or touches the exterior scoring line of the 4 and 5 zone of a commercially produced B-21E target or equivalent Pride Enterprises (P.R.I.D.E.) target. The course of fire shall begin at Stage 1 and follow the order sequence through Stage 6.

According to their own guidelines it could be said that this shooting was a colossal failure. The parts of the body they train to hit ( zone 4 & 5 ) they missed.
Champu is right...it's crazy that this sort of thing could happen; on your own property no less. This sort of thing should not be happening in our country and we shouldn't just be accepting this as s.o.p.
The cops really need to dial this sort of thing back.
We are a free country, we are free people, we should all be on the same team and stand together as Americans. It shouldn't be us against them. We should be united as a whole. If we all stood together we could be the greatest in the world again and the bad guys wouldn't stand a chance against us.

[kelpdiver 2]

Iago

-If they were that close there is a serious issue with their training and methods. WTF were they doing within 'lunging distance' in the first place?

if the other person has a knife, lunging distance is 20+ feet. But like with the other Florida case, no video makes it hard to evaluate, though it is fair to hold LEOs to a higher standard.

[kelpdiver 2]

Kennedy

Facts matter. Florida law enforcement firearms qualification:
http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/Content/getdoc/75909126-f582-4dad-909c-9c34dff428e7/CJSTC-086ADTD110807.aspx

I have no idea what else Escambia county offers its deputies above and beyond state law, or if he took any outside training, or how often he trained on his own, but you can't say he hasn't trained in timed exercises.

Ok - you've put up the standard. Do you know that he met it? And how long ago? The document has a space for year of expiration - how many years do they get? The fact that it's year of expiration, versus an annual, suggests a lot of time for skill to decay.

These are timed exercises yet, but they're not very difficult ones. Certainly not the ones the Seals would train against. Frontsight puts all of their students through much more for their qualification test. And the standard for a hit was much smaller - both in the chest and for the required head shots.

[Nataly 38]

I love this guy:

Quote

"The tragedy of this is the noncompliance to the directions of law enforcement officers," said Sheriff David Morgan of Escambia County, Florida. "Had that occurred we wouldn't be having this discussion. It's a tragedy all the way around. He is both a suspect and a victim."

Quote

"The message to the public is this was a tragedy," Morgan said. "And it was a tragedy because we had an individual, a citizen, who for whatever reason, either impairment due to alcohol or drugs, or just taking it upon himself not to be compliant to following basic direct orders."

It's hard for me to know how I would have reacted in the cop's shoes... That stress/situation is not common every day stuff...

However, I can easily imagine being in the victim's shoes... Like: why is this dude yelling at me?? is this some kind of joke?? and suddenly: WHAT THE FUCK - ARE THEY SHOOTING AT ME??

Failure to respond to a direct order?? If you were guilty of a crime and expecting a cop to catch up with you, maybe... But in this context, your average joe would not be expecting orders from an armed cop... Doesn't sound like the poor guy even had time to process/understand what he was being asked and why...

That Sheriff (Morgan) comes across as a total asshat. Looks like *he* needs an attitude adjustment.

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[Bignugget 0]

Kennedy

***Studies have also shown that its possible to control heart rate, pulse and breathing in high stress situations.
8 bullets completely missed their target! There's no excuse for this. The cops were lucky no one else was hurt from a bullet gone astray...this time. They should give this cop a desk job ( if that) because a) he can't control himself in a high stress situations and b) he can't aim for shit.

And you come by your expertise how, exactly? Reality is not what you see in movies or on television. Try a line of garbage like that with law enforcement or military personnel, or antone who actually knows what they are talking about, and their opinion of you will match your opinion: in the dumpster.


NAVY SEALS have a 2/15 average on target during high intensity operations??

Holy hell I have lost some respect for the SEALS.

I have seen those ski/shooters in the olympics nail quarter sized targets after skiing like 3 miles with a crazy heart rate.....they need to get into the NAVY and law enforcement.

[Bignugget 0]

kelpdiver

***
-If they were that close there is a serious issue with their training and methods. WTF were they doing within 'lunging distance' in the first place?

if the other person has a knife, lunging distance is 20+ feet. But like with the other Florida case, no video makes it hard to evaluate, though it is fair to hold LEOs to a higher standard.


Can you please make a youtube video of you lunging from a car with a knife and covering 20 feet in the lunge?

[Kennedy 0]

Quote

NAVY SEALS have a 2/15 average on target during high intensity operations??

Holy hell I have lost some respect for the SEALS.

I have seen those ski/shooters in the olympics nail quarter sized targets after skiing like 3 miles with a crazy heart rate.....they need to get into the NAVY and law enforcement.

Your sarcasm is noted and duly derided. However, I'll agree your points.

Seals raiding a compound are prepared and expecting combat. Seals surprised by an ambush will have far more rounds that miss their mark. Same with Olympians. They are ready for their course of fire (they're also allowed to pause and control their reactions). They have time to prepare for the stress of competition. Sudden challenges that carry significant importance to the combatants are different from preplanned and expected contests. I hope you can see the difference.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[kelpdiver 2]

Bignugget

******
-If they were that close there is a serious issue with their training and methods. WTF were they doing within 'lunging distance' in the first place?

if the other person has a knife, lunging distance is 20+ feet. But like with the other Florida case, no video makes it hard to evaluate, though it is fair to hold LEOs to a higher standard.

Can you please make a youtube video of you lunging from a car with a knife and covering 20 feet in the lunge?

I'm speaking generally, not specific to here. If the guy is in a car, then lunging distance would be a bit longer than his arm length.

But a person standing 20 ft away - using the 3 seconds suggested a post ago - means the LEO would lose about 1/2 min reaction time, have to make a decision, and then fire sufficiently to stop the attacker. Even a perfect center mass shot won't do that in 2 seconds. The guy will die, but he still has a chance to take you with.

[kelpdiver 2]

Kennedy

Seals raiding a compound are prepared and expecting combat. Seals surprised by an ambush will have far more rounds that miss their mark. Same with Olympians. They are ready for their course of fire (they're also allowed to pause and control their reactions). They have time to prepare for the stress of competition. Sudden challenges that carry significant importance to the combatants are different from preplanned and expected contests. I hope you can see the difference.

I suspect the Seals will still do a lot better than we saw here.

And I'm quite certain that you could surprise a biathlete, hand him a gun, and still see some pretty fucking awesome shooting. He or she trains to shoot at a high heart rate.

[Kennedy 0]

I'm sure seals would put more rounds on target, but they get a lot better training and a lot more time and a lot more money. They also have a very different focus. Afterall, they're military, not law enforcement. As for the biathlete, you're guessing and I doubt it. You can't act like their training has anything to do with split second life or death shots. Shooting stationary paper after exertion is simply not equivalent to sudden fight-flight-posture-submit shooting.

Go ask the marines how many rounds they put down range to score one hit on an enemy. Anyone here going to shit on uncle sam's misguided children?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

swisschris62

Don't fault these guys though...after all they were in the midst of an elevated pulse rate, their pupils were going crazy, oh yeah and they were sweating.
Who can shoot straight under those conditions? Hell even a navy seal would find it hard to hit what their aiming at!!

It's kind of sad that you are using sarcasm in a caustic manner and fail to understand that you are actually describing reality.

Also, trying to understand that nowhere in this thread have I attempted to justify the decision to shoot. I have been trying to help others understand why the officers missed, not why they shot or if it was the correct decision. They are two very different points.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[swisschris62 0]

Not that I've been in combat but are most enemies 60 year old men with bad backs standing by their car or do enemies typically hide behind rocks, trees, and walls?
I'm sure marines success rate would improve under different circumstances.
There's a YouTube video of the sheriffs press conference. He can't even make this sound like it was good police work.
I can't believe anyone would try and justify what happened to this guy. Any cop that thinks that what happened here is acceptable and can't think of alternative methods of handling situations like this probably shouldn't be a cop.

[kelpdiver 2]

Kennedy

Go ask the marines how many rounds they put down range to score one hit on an enemy. Anyone here going to shit on uncle sam's misguided children?

unlike biathletes or this cop, they have people firing back, and thus suppression fire.

[swisschris62 0]

http://youtu.be/GTH5Ug1NUb4.

Check out CNN video. They go to the driveway where incident happened and they count off bullets that hit random stuff.
Looks like a couple drunken cowboys were out there shooting the place up
Sorry about being clicky challenged

[Kennedy 0]

swisschris62

http://youtu.be/GTH5Ug1NUb4.

Check out CNN video. They go to the driveway where incident happened and they count off bullets that hit random stuff.
Looks like a couple drunken cowboys were out there shooting the place up
Sorry about being clicky challenged

Links that work are nice. If you have the url, click the url button under the text box. Otherwise, please at least make sure it is something we can copy paste and get to.

I did find this on the CNN page. is it the one your were trying to link to?
http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/31/us/florida-police-shooting/index.html

I'm probably done responding to you since you have no idea how law enforcement works, aren't interested in learning, and don't seem to understand how firearms are used in the real world. If you have questions, please ask. If you think you know everything already, you're really kind of sad. You don't know what officers said, what the guy in the car said, or what any of them actually did. All you have is the guy's story and a very vague statement from the sheriff. If you think that gives you a complete story, then you're just filling in the blanks with however you feel. I wonder if you even know you're doing it, or if you're ignorant of that, too.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[swisschris62 0]

http://youtu.be/GTH5Ug1NUb4[/url]

Sorry about that...when I went to YouTube the link worked for me it's just that I didn't know how to make it a clicky.
Your 100% right ...I don't know what was said by either party. I'm also not a firearms expert nor do I have a military background. I am not anti law enforcement. My experience dealing with law enforcement has for the most part has been a good. I have interaction in some form or another with law enforcement on almost a daily basis. Even when things don't start off well I typically am able to diffuse the situation before it gets out of hand. In my business certain areas of the country are considered hot spots where guys have more trouble than others. Even in those areas I can honestly say I've never been treated unfairly. I have assisted law enforcement, at times work with them or for them.
I am a long haul owner op truck driver. I would say at least half of my freight is military or from a state or federal agency. I have clearances that bring me to places most people will never see. I have driven thousands of miles under escort where I'm sharing my meals with these guys and have formed friendships.
In no way does this make me an expert nor do I claim to even know a little more then the average bear.
What I do know is that there are options in life with almost anything and strongly believe these guys were a little too quick in their actions. You on the other hand feel this is acceptable police work. Another difference between us is that I'm not telling you how ignorant you are or that your a sad sack for thinking the way u think.
If its your professional opinion that this was good police work then I accept your opinion but respectfully disagree. Neither you or I know what the exchange of words were. All we know with certainty is that this guy was at his house next to his car and the number of shots that were fired and where they landed. One of those strays could have very easily hurt or killed someone not even involved in this incident...then what?
At the end of the day it doesn't matter what you or me think. We will just have to let this investigation go forward and see what the professionals conclude.
Regardless of the outcome I will still feel the way I do and sadly you probably will too. Would you feel different if it was a family member that this happened to or if one of those bullets that missed hit your kid playing in the yard?

[Bignugget 0]

Kennedy

***Don't fault these guys though...after all they were in the midst of an elevated pulse rate, their pupils were going crazy, oh yeah and they were sweating.
Who can shoot straight under those conditions? Hell even a navy seal would find it hard to hit what their aiming at!!

It's kind of sad that you are using sarcasm in a caustic manner and fail to understand that you are actually describing reality.

Also, trying to understand that nowhere in this thread have I attempted to justify the decision to shoot. I have been trying to help others understand why the officers missed, not why they shot or if it was the correct decision. They are two very different points.


It seems like we agree that gross incompetence in training is the main problem.

Train cops better and maybe they wouldn't get scared and miss 15x

Word.

[kallend 2,027]

More cop over-reaction:

www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/15/texas-swat-team-conducts-_n_3764951.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

Police state, anyone?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.