Dark spell cast on earth by Psychiatry

[chemist 0]

RonD1120

*********My point as well, but yes, it was started as The Oxford Group faction of Christians.

You are correct. However, it became a non-denominational, in fact secular, organization because the purpose is to attain sobriety not to worship. Oh, and for millions of people world wide, it works.

I'm sorry, how can anything about it be considered "secular" considering the 12 Steps?

If you deny the 12 Steps exists, then maybe, but as long as it exists it's not secular.

Over the past several years I have determined that your major intellectual conflicts are derived from a lack of understanding in specific field phraseology.

This argument is pointless. Every time the 12 steps has been taken to court it has always, every time been ruled religious.

You can't just say you have to believe in God but say 'oh but it's not really God', what do you think our founding fathers would think? you cannot redefine God because the entity by definition is the basis of religion.

[RonD1120 62]

chemist

This argument is pointless. Every time the 12 steps has been taken to court it has always, every time been ruled religious.

I am not aware of any such court cases. Can you give me some examples?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[chemist 0]

RonD1120

***
This argument is pointless. Every time the 12 steps has been taken to court it has always, every time been ruled religious.

I am not aware of any such court cases. Can you give me some examples?

I saw it on an episode of Penn and Teller's bullshit about 12 step programs. In the episode I saw that the supreme court ruled alcoholism was NOT a disease.

here are the cases from a quick google search
http://nccriminallaw.sog.unc.edu/?p=784

[ryoder 1,590]

chemist

I saw it on an episode of Penn and Teller's bullshit about 12 step programs.

On Youtube in 3 parts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0DSEdLCAUg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nwYEc-z3e0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbirLZf9B5Y

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[winsor 236]

ryoder

***
I saw it on an episode of Penn and Teller's bullshit about 12 step programs.

On Youtube in 3 parts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0DSEdLCAUg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nwYEc-z3e0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbirLZf9B5Y

So it's all 24 karat bullshit?

It has been amply demonstrated that the US of A is powered by bullshit, and anyone who can harness bullshit is guaranteed success. Obama is a prime example.

[StreetScooby 5]

We should all be worried about DS5.

We are all engines of karma

[chemist 0]

StreetScooby

We should all be worried about DS5.

you mean DSM5?

[RonD1120 62]

chemist

******
This argument is pointless. Every time the 12 steps has been taken to court it has always, every time been ruled religious.

I am not aware of any such court cases. Can you give me some examples?

I saw it on an episode of Penn and Teller's bullshit about 12 step programs. In the episode I saw that the supreme court ruled alcoholism was NOT a disease.

here are the cases from a quick google search
http://nccriminallaw.sog.unc.edu/?p=784

A quick scan of the NC court reference seems to indicate debate is still ongoing.

Now the SCOTUS ruling on alcoholism is interesting.

Here is a brief description on what the AMA has stated.

Quote

Medical Community
In 1956, the American Medical Association (AMA) stated alcoholism was a disease, as it met the five criteria needed in order to be considered a disease: pattern of symptoms, chronic, progression, subject to relapse, and treatability. One could learn about the disease concept through community lectures, articles in the paper, alcoholism hotlines and, of course, Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) meetings.

Alcohol is the drug most frequently used by American teenagers. It is consumed more frequently than all other illicit drugs combined and is the drug most likely to be associated with injury or death.

Alcohol is a drug that can affect judgment, coordination and long-term health. It is involved in teen automobile crashes, homicides, and suicides--the three leading causes of teen deaths.

Alcoholism, also known as “alcohol dependence,” is a disease that includes four symptoms:

Craving: A strong need, or compulsion, to drink.
Loss of control: The inability to limit one’s drinking on any given occasion.
Physical dependence: Withdrawal symptoms, such as nausea, sweating, shakiness, and anxiety, occur when alcohol use is stopped after a period of heavy drinking.
Tolerance: The need to drink greater amounts of alcohol in order to “get high.”

http://www.hopenetworks.org/addiction/alcohol/Alcoholism.htm

That concept is also debated among physicians. However, it is a main requirement in order for treatment programs to receive federal funding as well as third party payments. So for all practical purposes, it is a treatable disease. The DSM-IV classifies it as a Axis I diagnosis.

The courts have long held different definitions for human afflictions. For example, there is a legal definition for mental illness in each state that probably will not coincide with the DSM definition.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 62]

chemist

***We should all be worried about DS5.

you mean DSM5?

Has the DSM-V been released?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[chemist 0]

A moral judgement is different from a disease.

Anybody can learn to control their drinking if that's what they want. In fact, the majority of problem drinkers quit on their own or begin moderate drinking successfully. It's not for everyone but for the most people it's a matter of a little bit of will power.

I have heard of many people who start skydiving to end their addictions. You don't have the moral authority, and you certainly don't have a scientific basis to conclude that that doesn't work for them.

Some people have kids and stop, some people get into sports. There are all sorts of ways people stop addictions other than God. Someone who started skydiving wouldn't tell every alcoholic they have to start skydiving and that's the only way, so why would you tell people they have to find God and that's the only way?

[Kennedy 0]

Quote

In fact, the majority of problem drinkers quit on their own or begin moderate drinking successfully. It's not for everyone but for the most people it's a matter of a little bit of will power.

Congratulations. You've proven are completely ignorant of addiction and it's treatment. Trouble with statistics, too.

witty subliminal message
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1*

[chemist 0]

Kennedy

Quote

In fact, the majority of problem drinkers quit on their own or begin moderate drinking successfully. It's not for everyone but for the most people it's a matter of a little bit of will power.

Congratulations. You've proven are completely ignorant of addiction and it's treatment. Trouble with statistics, too.

Statistics can be flawed, misleading and biased. You've just proved you're completely ignorant of actual facts. You can't just put away to the side the data that conflicts with your opinion. That's not science, that's pushing an agenda.

There are lots of studies that have shown people stop problem drinking on their own. That is just fact.

[Kennedy 0]

chemist

***

Quote

In fact, the majority of problem drinkers quit on their own or begin moderate drinking successfully. It's not for everyone but for the most people it's a matter of a little bit of will power.

Congratulations. You've proven are completely ignorant of addiction and it's treatment. Trouble with statistics, too.

Statistics can be flawed, misleading and biased. You've just proved you're completely ignorant of actual facts. You can't just put away to the side the data that conflicts with your opinion. That's not science, that's pushing an agenda.

There are lots of studies that have shown people stop problem drinking on their own. That is just fact.

You don't like statistics, so you prove your point with anecdotal evidence? Yeah, great science there. So, since "there are lots of studies that have shown people stop problem drinking on their own", why don't you link to some of them for us, or at least cite them.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[chemist 0]

The first person to call alcoholism a disease also said having black skin was a disease.

[RonD1120 62]

chemist

A moral judgement is different from a disease.

Anybody can learn to control their drinking if that's what they want. In fact, the majority of problem drinkers quit on their own or begin moderate drinking successfully. It's not for everyone but for the most people it's a matter of a little bit of will power.

I have heard of many people who start skydiving to end their addictions. You don't have the moral authority, and you certainly don't have a scientific basis to conclude that that doesn't work for them.

Some people have kids and stop, some people get into sports. There are all sorts of ways people stop addictions other than God. Someone who started skydiving wouldn't tell every alcoholic they have to start skydiving and that's the only way, so why would you tell people they have to find God and that's the only way?

You have now crossed the line and are making assumptions about me and accusing me of saying things I did not.

Go back and read my posts again.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[chemist 0]

RonD1120

You have now crossed the line and are making assumptions about me and accusing me of saying things I did not.

Go back and read my posts again.

What part specifically? Are members allowed to skip the steps that include the word God? Can the higher power be their own free will? Can they choose to drink moderately as part of the 'treatment'?

I may have said something you did not say specifically, but I do not believe I accused you of holding any ideas you did not convey or imply.

[RonD1120 62]

chemist

***

You have now crossed the line and are making assumptions about me and accusing me of saying things I did not.

Go back and read my posts again.

What part specifically? Are members allowed to skip the steps that include the word God? Can the higher power be their own free will? Can they choose to drink moderately as part of the 'treatment'?

I may have said something you did not say specifically, but I do not believe I accused you of holding any ideas you did not convey or imply.

Members can do whatever they want. If they want sobriety like they want oxygen, food and water they will follow the steps because, "The plan works if you work it."

Your higher power is God as you understand Him. That can be stated god as you understand him.

For an alcoholic, there is no such thing as drinking moderately. One drink is too many and a thousand is not enough.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[chemist 0]

RonD1120

Members can do whatever they want. If they want sobriety like they want oxygen, food and water they will follow the steps because, "The plan works if you work it."

Your higher power is God as you understand Him. That can be stated god as you understand him.

For an alcoholic, there is no such thing as drinking moderately. One drink is too many and a thousand is not enough.

you have one life to live, don't waste it following mindless drivel.

[Kennedy 0]

chemist

There are lots of studies that have shown people stop problem drinking on their own. That is just fact.

The first person to call alcoholism a disease also said having black skin was a disease.

Still waiting for you to back up anything you've said so far. You can start by citing a source for these two statements.

Then you can try to actually refute the classification of alcoholism as a disease, instead of attacking a guy who suggested it.

You can start by addressing the AMA and NIH position on this issue. Then you can discuss the definition of disease, and show whether alcoholism fits that definition. (disclaimer: if you do this logically, you'll find out you're wrong)

witty subliminal message
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1*

[chemist 0]

Kennedy

***There are lots of studies that have shown people stop problem drinking on their own. That is just fact.

The first person to call alcoholism a disease also said having black skin was a disease.

Still waiting for you to back up anything you've said so far. You can start by citing a source for these two statements.

Then you can try to actually refute the classification of alcoholism as a disease, instead of attacking a guy who suggested it.

You can start by addressing the AMA and NIH position on this issue. Then you can discuss the definition of disease, and show whether alcoholism fits that definition. (disclaimer: if you do this logically, you'll find out you're wrong)

If you use that same logic you could call skydiving a disease. Doesn't make it true. You can repeat a lie a thousand times and it's still a lie.

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/06/20/dr-keith-ablow-obesity-is-not-disease-and-neither-is-alcoholism/

"The AMA, in classifying obesity as a disease, furthers the dependency, disempowerment and entitlement culture that is eroding scientific truth and personal autonomy in America."

[Kennedy 0]

chemist

******(1)There are lots of studies that have shown people stop problem drinking on their own. That is just fact.

(2)The first person to call alcoholism a disease also said having black skin was a disease.

Still waiting for you to back up anything you've said so far. You can start by citing a source for these two statements.

Then you can try to actually refute the classification of alcoholism as a disease, instead of attacking a guy who suggested it.

You can start by addressing the AMA and NIH position on this issue. Then you can discuss the definition of disease, and show whether alcoholism fits that definition. (disclaimer: if you do this logically, you'll find out you're wrong)

If you use that same logic you could call skydiving a disease. Doesn't make it true. You can repeat a lie a thousand times and it's still a lie.

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/06/20/dr-keith-ablow-obesity-is-not-disease-and-neither-is-alcoholism/

"The AMA, in classifying obesity as a disease, furthers the dependency, disempowerment and entitlement culture that is eroding scientific truth and personal autonomy in America."

Since you can't cite a source for the two quoted statements, you should admit they are garbage. You also really need to stop using anecdotes to try to prove broad assertions.

Can you list the factors that lead to something being classified as a disease?

witty subliminal message
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[chemist 0]

From Wikipedia:

In 1792 Rush read a paper before the American Philosophical Society which argued that the "color" and "figure" of blacks were derived from a form of leprosy. He argued that with proper treatment, blacks could be cured and become white.[19]

EDIT: I should mention that 'proper treatment' included violently whipping their backs to cure this disease called Dysaethesia Aethiopica. Of course it was never a disease.

I can list the factors of disease, and Dysaethesia Aethiopica does not satisfy the requirements for a disease. It was at the time voted into existence, and it was voted out of existence when it was no longer fashionable.

[Kennedy 0]

chemist

From Wikipedia:

In 1792 Rush read a paper before the American Philosophical Society which argued that the "color" and "figure" of blacks were derived from a form of leprosy. He argued that with proper treatment, blacks could be cured and become white.[19]

EDIT: I should mention that 'proper treatment' included violently whipping their backs to cure this disease called Dysaethesia Aethiopica. Of course it was never a disease.

I can list the factors of disease, and Dysaethesia Aethiopica does not satisfy the requirements for a disease. It was at the time voted into existence, and it was voted out of existence when it was no longer fashionable.

Wikipedia

Reforms
Anti-slavery
In 1766 when Rush set out for his studies in Edinburgh, he was outraged by the sight of 100 slave ships in Liverpool harbor. As a prominent Presbyterian doctor and professor of chemistry in Philadelphia, he provided a bold and respected voice against the slave trade that could not be ignored.[17]
The highlight of his involvement was the pamphlet he wrote in 1773 entitled "An Address to the Inhabitants of the British Settlements in America, upon Slave-Keeping." In this first of his many attacks on the social evils of his day, he not only assailed the slave trade, but the entire institution of slavery. Dr. Rush argued scientifically that Negroes were not by nature intellectually or morally inferior. Any apparent evidence to the contrary was only the perverted expression of slavery, which "is so foreign to the human mind, that the moral faculties, as well as those of the understanding are debased, and rendered torpid by it."[18]
In 1792 Rush read a paper before the American Philosophical Society which argued that the "color" and "figure" of blacks were derived from a form of leprosy. He argued that with proper treatment, blacks could be cured and become white.[19]

Really, that's what you want to use to knock him down? The fact that he was more progressive than most leaders of his day?
FYI: this is called ad hominem attack. It is generally used when you can't attack the argument of the speaker (or writer in this case, as he's long dead).

You still haven't supported your claim "There are lots of studies that have shown people stop problem drinking on their own." I know about the RAND report, and it was widely discredited. That's one for you. Does your "lots" have any relation to the percent of total studies. If you can show half, most, or nearly all, that would actually mean something.

You still haven't showed that you understand what characteristics are used to define something as a disease, and you haven't said why they don't fit alcoholism.

So far it looks like you're ducking and dodging.
Irrelevant side note, I would say Trotter called it a disease before B. Rush, but it wasn't until the mid twentieth century that alcoholism as a disease gained traction, in large part due to EM Pattinson.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[RonD1120 62]

chemist

***
Members can do whatever they want. If they want sobriety like they want oxygen, food and water they will follow the steps because, "The plan works if you work it."

Your higher power is God as you understand Him. That can be stated god as you understand him.

For an alcoholic, there is no such thing as drinking moderately. One drink is too many and a thousand is not enough.

you have one life to live, don't waste it following mindless drivel.

Denial is the number one symptom of the disease.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[winsor 236]

RonD1120

******
Members can do whatever they want. If they want sobriety like they want oxygen, food and water they will follow the steps because, "The plan works if you work it."

Your higher power is God as you understand Him. That can be stated god as you understand him.

For an alcoholic, there is no such thing as drinking moderately. One drink is too many and a thousand is not enough.

you have one life to live, don't waste it following mindless drivel.

Denial is the number one symptom of the disease.

It is not.