Syria

[jclalor 12]

Quote

What we're seeing now is a POTUS severely lacking principles, moral fiber, and content of character.

I'm glad to see that you have withheld any judgement on his Presidency until now.

So when the Tomahawks fly as soon as the UN gets out, with the polls in the teens, what will you say then?

[airdvr 210]

jclalor

Quote

What we're seeing now is a POTUS severely lacking principles, moral fiber, and content of character.

I'm glad to see that you have withheld any judgement on his Presidency until now.

So when the Tomahawks fly as soon as the UN gets out, with the polls in the teens, what will you say then?

I'll be saying that he can check that off his list of things that will help him save face.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[jclalor 12]

Quote

March 7, 2009 - The United States and Syria found "common ground" when U.S. officials Jeffrey Feltman and Dan Shapiro met with Syrian Foreign Minister Walid al-Moualem in the first high-level trip by American officials to Damascus since 2005.

February 16, 2010 - Obama nominated Robert Ford to be the U.S. ambassador to Syria, the first since Washington withdrew its ambassador in 2005 after the assassination of former Lebanese Prime Minister Rafik al-Hariri in Beirut.

February 17, 2010 - Assad held security talks in Damascus with U.S. Under Secretary of State William Burns, after which the U.S. official said he was "hopeful" of progress.

April 8, 2011 - In a statement on the uprising, which began on March 15, Obama called on Assad to halt the "abhorrent violence committed against peaceful protesters."

April 22, 2011 - Obama condemned use of force against demonstrators and called on Assad to "change course now."

April 29, 2011 - United States slaps sanctions on Syria's intelligence agency and two relatives of Assad, in Washington's first concrete steps in response to the crackdown on protests.

July 12, 2011 - Obama sharpened rhetoric against Assad, saying the Syrian president had "lost legitimacy" for failing to lead a democratic transition.

August 11, 2011 - Obama and Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan in a phone call spoke about the violence in Syria and the need for a transition to democracy, the White House said.

August 18, 2011 - For the first time, Obama called for Assad to step down, saying: "For the sake of the Syrian people, the time has come for President Assad to step aside." Britain, France and Germany also called for Assad to step aside.

October 24, 2011 - The United States pulled its ambassador, Robert Ford, out of Syria over threats to his safety.

May 18, 2012 - Group of Eight leaders at Camp David discussed the need for political transition in Syria.

June 18, 2012 - Obama and Russian President Vladimir Putin at the Group of 20 summit in Mexico agreed violence in Syria must end but showed no signs of reaching a deal on tougher sanctions against Damascus.

June 22, 2012 - U.S. Defense Secretary Leon Panetta defended the administration's decision to not arm the Syrian rebels, which has been criticized by some Republicans in Congress.

July 18, 2012 - Obama called Putin to discuss the deteriorating situation in Syria after a bombing in Damascus killed members of Assad's inner circle, but the two leaders ended the call divided over the best way forward.

July 19, 2012 - U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Susan Rice called the Russian and Chinese vetoes of a U.N. Security Council resolution on Syria "dangerous and deplorable."

July 23, 2012 - Obama says Assad will be held accountable if he makes the "tragic mistake" of using Syria's stockpile of chemical weapons.

You may want to find a more up to date anti-Obama rant, this one ended over a year ago.

Any of your own thoughts on the last year? or do you have to Google them first?

[kallend 2,106]

Up until about 15 years ago the USA stockpiled chemical weapons.

It's quite common for those who suddenly get religion to get all holier than thou.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[normiss 851]

It's interesting how some finally have this perspective.
Would have been nice to have the same perspective on previous leaders in similar situations don't you think?

[airdvr 210]

Quote

Any of your own thoughts on the last year? or do you have to Google them first?

Reading comprehension a bit tough these days? Do the words moral fiber, character, principles ring a bell? I guess when you can't attack the message you go after the messenger.

I don't know what the answer is. I didn't campaign to be the guy that gets to make those decisions. Or is this above his pay grade as well?

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[winsor 236]

jclalor

******

Quote

Oh, yeah, gas is SO much worse than artillery. People should look forward to traumatic amputation and other blast-induced damage by comparison.

Gee... I wonder why they invented nerve gas if artillery did the trick just fine

***Of course, sending large amounts of explosive through the air is nowhere NEAR as indiscriminate as using chemical weapons.

We agree

Quote

I am sure that the (22,700+ - mostly refugees, btw) residents of Dresden (13 Feb 1945) and the (100,000+) residents of Tokyo (9 Mar 1945) were comforted by the fact that no "weapons of mass destruction" were used on them. No siree bob, none of that indiscriminate stuff for them!

Who has ever denied that they were not the intentional targeted killing of women and children?


Whooosh...

Comparing the firebombing of cities during WW2, to the limited use of targeted cruise missiles, saying a 155 round is no more deadly than VX gas, Whooosh...

Clues, $.05...

[Skyrad 0]

CanuckInUSA

It's not just the Iranians, don't forget the Russians and the Chinese. I can only hope there are cooler heads in Moscow and Beijing than there are in Washington. WTF is going on here?

The Iranians have dropped trading oil in the US dollar and are encouraging others to do the same, India is already trading with Iran for oil not using the US dollar, China is prepared to do the same, other will follow. The US dollar is not held up by gold and hasn't been since Nixon defaulted on the US promise not to print more money than could be underwritten in gold. OPEC then agreed to trade oil only in US dollars thus making oil the currency that gave the US dollar its worth. To trade in the US dollar the OPEC nations had to have vast amounts of it. If oil is no longer traded in US dollar then the dollar has no real worth and there is also no longer any point in those nations holding it. If large sums of US dollar enter the market then the USA is screwed over night. At best the US dollar is buggered as the third biggest oil producer in the world Iran is no longer trading in the US Dollar. China has made the decision to no longer trade for oil in the US dollar but is using the Yuan (they made the announcement on 9/11 last year). June 13 this year Russia made a deal for the value of $270 Billion to trade oil with China Rosneft will supply China with 300,000 barrels per day over 25 years starting in the second half of the decade.
The US dollar is on its way to hyperinflation provoking a war with Iran is a last ditch throw of the dice for the USA, high risk, high stakes and if it doesn't pan out they're totally screwed.
Thats what this is all about, that is what is going on here. This course of action has been taken by the very coolest of heads.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Andy9o8 2]

kallend

Up until about 15 years ago the USA stockpiled chemical weapons. It's quite common for those who suddenly get religion to get all holier than thou.

Slightly over-simplified. Fuller detail and perspective:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction#History

[lawrocket 3]

[Reply]Be careful, the world is watching and the guy before you fucked up the US credibility. Make the wrong choice and be forever branded as "worse than Bush."

[DanG 1]

Quote

The Iranians have dropped trading oil in the US dollar and are encouraging others to do the same, India is already trading with Iran for oil not using the US dollar, China is prepared to do the same, other will follow. The US dollar is not held up by gold and hasn't been since Nixon defaulted on the US promise not to print more money than could be underwritten in gold. OPEC then agreed to trade oil only in US dollars thus making oil the currency that gave the US dollar its worth. To trade in the US dollar the OPEC nations had to have vast amounts of it. If oil is no longer traded in US dollar then the dollar has no real worth and there is also no longer any point in those nations holding it. If large sums of US dollar enter the market then the USA is screwed over night. At best the US dollar is buggered as the third biggest oil producer in the world Iran is no longer trading in the US Dollar. China has made the decision to no longer trade for oil in the US dollar but is using the Yuan (they made the announcement on 9/11 last year). June 13 this year Russia made a deal for the value of $270 Billion to trade oil with China Rosneft will supply China with 300,000 barrels per day over 25 years starting in the second half of the decade.
The US dollar is on its way to hyperinflation provoking a war with Iran is a last ditch throw of the dice for the USA, high risk, high stakes and if it doesn't pan out they're totally screwed.
Thats what this is all about, that is what is going on here. This course of action has been taken by the very coolest of heads.

You forgot to work the Bilderberg Group into your theory.

- Dan G

[quade 4]

normiss

It's interesting how some finally have this perspective.
Would have been nice to have the same perspective on previous leaders in similar situations don't you think?

Finally? I gave GWB the benefit of the doubt right up to the moment we found out certain people under him had outright lied to him and Powell. I was cautiously optimistic about us doing good in Iraq. Not gung ho, but not protesting either. I knew what I was seeing was bad, but I didn't have the information he did. However, it all turned out to be a sham. Why criminal charges were never filed against those who cooked the information is beyond me.

I feel the same way today about the current President and his situation he has to face.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[lawrocket 3]

[Reply] However, it all turned out to be a sham. Why criminal charges were never filed against those who cooked the information is beyond me

[Skyrad 0]

DanG

Quote

The Iranians have dropped trading oil in the US dollar and are encouraging others to do the same, India is already trading with Iran for oil not using the US dollar, China is prepared to do the same, other will follow. The US dollar is not held up by gold and hasn't been since Nixon defaulted on the US promise not to print more money than could be underwritten in gold. OPEC then agreed to trade oil only in US dollars thus making oil the currency that gave the US dollar its worth. To trade in the US dollar the OPEC nations had to have vast amounts of it. If oil is no longer traded in US dollar then the dollar has no real worth and there is also no longer any point in those nations holding it. If large sums of US dollar enter the market then the USA is screwed over night. At best the US dollar is buggered as the third biggest oil producer in the world Iran is no longer trading in the US Dollar. China has made the decision to no longer trade for oil in the US dollar but is using the Yuan (they made the announcement on 9/11 last year). June 13 this year Russia made a deal for the value of $270 Billion to trade oil with China Rosneft will supply China with 300,000 barrels per day over 25 years starting in the second half of the decade.
The US dollar is on its way to hyperinflation provoking a war with Iran is a last ditch throw of the dice for the USA, high risk, high stakes and if it doesn't pan out they're totally screwed.
Thats what this is all about, that is what is going on here. This course of action has been taken by the very coolest of heads.

You forgot to work the Bilderberg Group into your theory.

Time tells all.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[normiss 851]

Then you're really not going to like the current administration before much longer - if you don't already.

IMO, this is a HUGE regionally destabilizing issue that will very well impact the world economies. Bad.
Radical Islam will be pretty happy I think.

My apologies for not seeing any support from you towards the previous admin, it's been awhile since we went through those discussions yet the continually surfaces.
It will be very interesting in the near future to see how this plays out. It's gonna suck I expect.

[quade 4]

My hope is that in the years since we marched into Iraq we've become more sophisticated about detection. FFS I seriously hope so. I was kind of surprised we didn't seem to have NBC detection drones that could have immediately flown into the area to do an initial analysis.

It also surprises me that we don't seem to have any sort of orbiting vehicle that can do any sort of remote sensing spectrometry.

And lastly I'm a bit surprised that we don't seem to have local agents right on the ground with the ability to pick up rocket parts and determine their origin.

Who knows, maybe we do and they're top secret. I kinda would like to think we have all of that sort of intel now. God only knows we've spent billions and years on other things. It sure as hell doesn't seem like too much to ask for.

The thing is . . . unless proven otherwise . . . you nor I will ever know if it's the right decision.

I guess that's why we live in a Republic.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[normiss 851]

Very good points Paul.

I doubt we have made any progress in the needed areas. We are talking about our government.

[shropshire 0]

lawrocket

And the internationall coalition right now consists of England and France.

Sort of.. it may consist of our lap-dog leaders but certainly not the people.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Skyrad 0]

Well said Tony, growing opposition every day. The government have had to embarrassingly climb down over an attack decision today. The other two allies that haven't been mentioned in the post you responded to are Turkey and Israel. Israel has already conducted bombing missions in Syria and Turkey has had more than one cross boarder scuffle already.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[JerryBaumchen 1,434]

Hi shrop,

Quote

lap-dog leaders but certainly not the people.

Last night I saw the film 'Closed Circuit' which is about:

1. They're watching us and
2. The gov't gets what it wants

It takes place in your part of the world; good film.

JerryBaumchen

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2218003/

[shropshire 0]

Cheers Jerry - I'll look out for it.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Andy9o8 2]

Skyrad

Well said Tony, growing opposition every day. The government have had to embarrassingly climb down over an attack decision today. The other two allies that haven't been mentioned in the post you responded to are Turkey and Israel. Israel has already conducted bombing missions in Syria and Turkey has had more than one cross boarder scuffle already.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23892783

Parliament just voted down Cameron's motion to approve UK military action against Syria. And Cameron now says he will comply with the majority's wishes. (I'll bet privately he's heaving a sigh of relief - now he's off the hook.)

This is Obama's slim chance for an out from the corner he's painted into. Congress is starting to demand that it be consulted before Obama takes military action. Obama should do exactly that, on the grounds that the democratic process requires it, blah, blah, whatever. If Congress approves action, then he can point the finger back at them if/when it goes sideways. If Congress says no, Obama can then say that he's doing exactly what Cameron is doing - respecting the democratic process. (Blah, blah, whatever.)

[Fast 0]

Seems like a good way out of a problem we shouldn't have stuck our noes into in the first place. That much is for sure.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[quade 4]

Fast

Seems like a good way out of a problem we shouldn't have stuck our noes into in the first place. That much is for sure.

Sounds a bit like the "America First" position prior to entering into WWII.

I'm sorry. I can't buy into that line of reasoning. Chemical weapons use isn't just an attack on your specific enemies. Innocents aren't simply collateral damage from splash damage of a bomb going off.

Sorry, but it's far beyond immoral to not try to do something to stop it.

We can bicker all day and night about what that is, but it IS our business whether or not we decide to take this or that specific action.

It's like saying it's none of your business if some little hooligan in your neighborhood is poisoning pets as long as they aren't YOUR pets. Yeah, it sure the fuck is.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Gravitymaster 0]

How many American lives are you willing to forfeit so we can protect people who generally hate us?