wmw999 2,541 #51 August 30, 2013 The clear inference from your statement is that her program was the cause of her downfall. The inference from knowing that she had quit her own program and gone back to AA is more complex (which these situations usually are) -- could be that SMART wasn't working for her (and AA obviously didn't either). Either way, leaving out the information does make the picture less complete, and leads to evaluating the event with insufficient evidence. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,541 #52 August 30, 2013 I went and read up on Audrey Kishline (the founder in question), including this article written by someone who was also associated with MM. Sounds like neither program helped her. But she also didn't use either program to really help herself, did she? Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ibx 2 #53 August 30, 2013 Quote In general I deal with concepts not details. In other words, I see forests and I'm not too concerned with the trees. The exception is when I am in a 1:1 counseling session. If you want to know why a forest is dying, you have to look at the trees. You will also always have a limited understanding of any forest you see... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chemist 0 #54 August 30, 2013 ibxQuote In general I deal with concepts not details. In other words, I see forests and I'm not too concerned with the trees. The exception is when I am in a 1:1 counseling session. If you want to know why a forest is dying, you have to look at the trees. You will also always have a limited understanding of any forest you see... Yea those god damn details always get in the way of a narrow-minded world view Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #55 August 30, 2013 chemist***Quote In general I deal with concepts not details. In other words, I see forests and I'm not too concerned with the trees. The exception is when I am in a 1:1 counseling session. If you want to know why a forest is dying, you have to look at the trees. You will also always have a limited understanding of any forest you see... Yea those god damn details always get in the way of a narrow-minded world view How apropos for this thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #56 August 30, 2013 wmw999The clear inference from your statement is that her program was the cause of her downfall. The inference from knowing that she had quit her own program and gone back to AA is more complex (which these situations usually are) -- could be that SMART wasn't working for her (and AA obviously didn't either). Either way, leaving out the information does make the picture less complete, and leads to evaluating the event with insufficient evidence. Wendy P. When I was still working in the substance use disorder treatment field, around 2006-07, a representative of the moderation theory appeared on local TV trying to sell the program. My colleagues and I agreed that he appeared very shaky in his recovery and not a good spokesman. We never accepted moderation for any alcoholic because the results are generally not successful. Later I saw a TV program documenting her rise and fall with alcohol. That was the last mention of a moderation program that any of us was ever aware of. AA/NA the program works if you work it. Without a rigorously honest try you are guaranteed to fail.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #57 August 30, 2013 ibxQuote In general I deal with concepts not details. In other words, I see forests and I'm not too concerned with the trees. The exception is when I am in a 1:1 counseling session. If you want to know why a forest is dying, you have to look at the trees. You will also always have a limited understanding of any forest you see... I know why the forest is dying.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chemist 0 #58 August 31, 2013 I just wonder if you actually truly believe it's a disease deep deep down inside. I think you know the truth deep down but you'll never admit it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #59 August 31, 2013 chemistI just wonder if you actually truly believe it's a disease deep deep down inside. I think you know the truth deep down but you'll never admit it. If you are referring to alcoholism and other forms of substance use disorder, yes, I accept the disease concept. The disease concept is necessary to channel third party payment for the treatment. As a Christian, I accept the sin concept of the disease and believe the treatment can be handled by a knowledgeable counselor standing on the Word of God. As a master's level counselor I must make the decision of which arena I am to perform my service based on the needs of the client. I am retired, my work now is voluntary. That gives me more leeway in my choice of arenas.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chemist 0 #60 August 31, 2013 Plastic surgeons perform operations, and they don't treat any diseases but still earn very high salaries. OB/GYN's deliver babies and provide counseling throughout pregnancy, likewise they don't log any sort of disease for their efforts. Good health is very dynamic, especially in the field of mental health. Whether or not you or the patient believe its a disease doesnt matter, you still spend the same amount of time with the patient, write the same length of a report, etc... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #61 August 31, 2013 chemistPlastic surgeons perform operations, and they don't treat any diseases but still earn very high salaries. OB/GYN's deliver babies and provide counseling throughout pregnancy, likewise they don't log any sort of disease for their efforts. Good health is very dynamic, especially in the field of mental health. Whether or not you or the patient believe its a disease doesnt matter, you still spend the same amount of time with the patient, write the same length of a report, etc... I agree.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
