Abortion pill trick?!?!

[airdvr 210]

Bolas

******hey it's all hypothetical right? I thought that verbal contracts were just as binding as written. Maybe harder to prove but still binding.

because they're impossible to prove, it's a pointless argument.

This is where supporting evidence such as subpoenaed prescription and medical records come in.

Witness testimony.

Yet another reason to video sex.

Could start with a video liability waiver.

Big orange tat on your ass?

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[labrys 0]

Quote

His choice is addressed in the child support case. it's covered.
HER choice is address in the fraud case. Separate issue.

you went off on the tangent

Mea culpa.

Owned by Remi #?

[kelpdiver 2]

Bolas

***
because they're impossible to prove, it's a pointless argument.

This is where supporting evidence such as subpoenaed prescription and medical records come in.


That doesn't establish a claimed verbal contract.

[grue 1]

There's a very simple solution to this sort of situation.

The law needs to be that if the man wants the woman to have an abortion, and she doesn't want to, he should be able to give up all visitation and parental rights in exchange for not being responsible for anything pertaining to the kid. The woman retains absolute control over if she has the baby or not, but she'll need to decide if it's worth having without the support of the father.

In cases where the father is not contacted or notified before the point where the abortion cannot be performed, he would by default not be on the hook for support unless he chooses to be a part of the child's life.

cavete terrae.

[grue 1]

airdvr

I guess the problem I have with all of this conversation is the assumption that the guy's life is royally fucked by fathering a child. It's not and if you peel the outer layers off he just might find it's the best thing that ever happened.

How can you possibly make a blanket statement that someone's life isn't ruined by fathering a child? You can't know other peoples' situation. There's no doubt in my mind that my life, happiness and possibly my very will to live would be destroyed by such a thing.

cavete terrae.

[grue 1]

Rick

True story: a woman I know decided after her 4th marriage she wanted a baby but not a man. She looked around and found the candidate that fit her requirements. Seduced him (told him she was on birth control so no condom needed) had a baby. He did not know she got pregnant until 3 or 4 years later when she decided it was tough financially to raise a kid. She took him to court for child support and he paid up until the child was 18. Shitty on her part yes. Totally devious but that in no way decreases his responsibility to the child.

There is literally nothing bad enough that can happen to her for that. Cancer, paralysis, none of that is sufficient.

cavete terrae.

[wmw999 2,447]

OK, in the "bad things can happen" department. There are, in fact, other things that people can lie about that can have life-long consequences for other parties.

"I"ve been tested for AIDS" and "I'm not too drunk to drive" come to mind. You get in the car, honestly thinking they're not too drunk, and you can, in fact, die, be maimed for life, or simply injured. They can suffer no consequences whatsoever physically. Yes, they can be punished, but you're still impacted and they aren't.

Life isn't always fair. This kind of devious behavior on the part of a woman is despicable. So is similarly devious behavior on the part of some men who want to get someone in bed.

I don't think that either men or women have the corner on the shitty behavior market, or on the fucked-over market.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Bolas 5]

kelpdiver

******
because they're impossible to prove, it's a pointless argument.

This is where supporting evidence such as subpoenaed prescription and medical records come in.


That doesn't establish a claimed verbal contract.

"Ladies and gentleman of the jury. Here are the facts. My client claimed under oath she said she was on birth control. Medical records obtained via court order show that not only was this not true, she had discussed pregnancy options with her doctor, as well as visited at least one sperm bank.

In addition to his sworn testimony, we have provided other witnesses and Internet posts all showing he had no interest in having a child at this time and that she wanted one.

You heard him say on the stand were this truly an accidental pregnancy, my client would be more than willing to provide support. But this was no accident, far from it.

You heard testimony from an expert witness describing the selfish mindset of an individual that would get pregnant this way was bordering on sociopathy.

All you've heard from the other side boils down to is that she really wants this child, but needs financial assistance to do so."

(Slight changes may be necessary depending on whether the man is the defendant or plaintiff.)

[grue 1]

wmw999

OK, in the "bad things can happen" department. There are, in fact, other things that people can lie about that can have life-long consequences for other parties.

"I"ve been tested for AIDS" and "I'm not too drunk to drive" come to mind. You get in the car, honestly thinking they're not too drunk, and you can, in fact, die, be maimed for life, or simply injured. They can suffer no consequences whatsoever physically. Yes, they can be punished, but you're still impacted and they aren't.

Life isn't always fair. This kind of devious behavior on the part of a woman is despicable. So is similarly devious behavior on the part of some men who want to get someone in bed.

I don't think that either men or women have the corner on the shitty behavior market, or on the fucked-over market.

Wendy P.

I never said otherwise, but now that you've brought it up, it's MUCH easier for a woman to ruin a man's life with the full support and protection of the law (either by legislation or precedent) than the other way around. Anyone who would argue otherwise is naive.

Also your comparisons to stds and drunk driving are fallacious. The topic at hand is malicious deception for the benefit of self and intentional damage to another. For the record, te abortion pill trick would fall under this but could have been potentially avoided, see my original post in the thread.

cavete terrae.

[airdvr 210]

grue

***I guess the problem I have with all of this conversation is the assumption that the guy's life is royally fucked by fathering a child. It's not and if you peel the outer layers off he just might find it's the best thing that ever happened.

How can you possibly make a blanket statement that someone's life isn't ruined by fathering a child? You can't know other peoples' situation. There's no doubt in my mind that my life, happiness and possibly my very will to live would be destroyed by such a thing.

Seriously? I had no idea you were such a drama queen.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[grue 1]

airdvr

******I guess the problem I have with all of this conversation is the assumption that the guy's life is royally fucked by fathering a child. It's not and if you peel the outer layers off he just might find it's the best thing that ever happened.

How can you possibly make a blanket statement that someone's life isn't ruined by fathering a child? You can't know other peoples' situation. There's no doubt in my mind that my life, happiness and possibly my very will to live would be destroyed by such a thing.

Seriously? I had no idea you were such a drama queen.

I'm selfish, hate kids, and I'm barely able to afford to skydive, which is one of the only things in my life that keeps me going. A kid would make everything worse.

cavete terrae.

[airdvr 210]

Bolas

*********
because they're impossible to prove, it's a pointless argument.

This is where supporting evidence such as subpoenaed prescription and medical records come in.


That doesn't establish a claimed verbal contract.

"Ladies and gentleman of the jury. Here are the facts. My client claimed under oath she said she was on birth control. Medical records obtained via court order show that not only was this not true, she had discussed pregnancy options with her doctor, as well as visited at least one sperm bank.

In addition to his sworn testimony, we have provided other witnesses and Internet posts all showing he had no interest in having a child at this time and that she wanted one.

You heard him say on the stand were this truly an accidental pregnancy, my client would be more than willing to provide support. But this was no accident, far from it.

You heard testimony from an expert witness describing the selfish mindset of an individual that would get pregnant this way was bordering on sociopathy.

All you've heard from the other side boils down to is that she really wants this child, but needs financial assistance to do so."

(Slight changes may be necessary depending on whether the man is the defendant or plaintiff.)
In Hollywood maybe...in the real world, never happen. Hasn't ever happened and won't ever happen. You honestly think you're the first person who has thought of this?

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[Bolas 5]

wmw999

OK, in the "bad things can happen" department. There are, in fact, other things that people can lie about that can have life-long consequences for other parties.

"I"ve been tested for AIDS" and "I'm not too drunk to drive" come to mind. You get in the car, honestly thinking they're not too drunk, and you can, in fact, die, be maimed for life, or simply injured. They can suffer no consequences whatsoever physically. Yes, they can be punished, but you're still impacted and they aren't.

Life isn't always fair. This kind of devious behavior on the part of a woman is despicable. So is similarly devious behavior on the part of some men who want to get someone in bed.

I don't think that either men or women have the corner on the shitty behavior market, or on the fucked-over market.

Wendy P.

Bolded the important part.

The argument is over the lack of legal recourse and protection of these women. We're not even to the point of arguing "it's hard to prove" as at this point no one has been able to provide one case or one law that protects men against for lack of a better term, pregnancy fraud.

At this point it seems a woman could do/say anything to a man short of raping him and he's forced to support the child. Hell, at this point wouldn't be surprised to hear that even raped men are required to support the child.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Rick 67]

wmw999

OK, in the "bad things can happen" department. There are, in fact, other things that people can lie about that can have life-long consequences for other parties.

"I"ve been tested for AIDS" and "I'm not too drunk to drive" come to mind. You get in the car, honestly thinking they're not too drunk, and you can, in fact, die, be maimed for life, or simply injured. They can suffer no consequences whatsoever physically. Yes, they can be punished, but you're still impacted and they aren't.

Life isn't always fair. This kind of devious behavior on the part of a woman is despicable. So is similarly devious behavior on the part of some men who want to get someone in bed.

I don't think that either men or women have the corner on the shitty behavior market, or on the fucked-over market.

Wendy P.

oh yeah I don't think I mentioned before the guy was married to someone else at the time

does that change anything??

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[wmw999 2,447]

Just that it means that he cheats on his wife.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Bolas 5]

Can you imagine the outrage were this reversed?

http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/he-says-he-said-no-to-sex-now-says-no-to-child-support/1183449

Male statutory rape victims are required to pay child support too.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[kelpdiver 2]

Bolas

Can you imagine the outrage were this reversed?

http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/he-says-he-said-no-to-sex-now-says-no-to-child-support/1183449

Male statutory rape victims are required to pay child support too.

He was not a statutory rape victim. He was 17, she was 18. Nearly all definitions require a greater separation of age than just over 18 versus just under 18.

Now the boy in question claims it was non consensual sex and she was bigger than he was. Not sure I buy it, but it's either rape, or consensual sex. Its certainly not a case of an adult taking advantage of a substantially younger, less mature teenage who doesn't know to say no.

[kelpdiver 2]

grue

Also your comparisons to stds and drunk driving are fallacious. The topic at hand is malicious deception for the benefit of self and intentional damage to another. For the record, te abortion pill trick would fall under this but could have been potentially avoided, see my original post in the thread.

There's absolutely no difference between "I'm on the pill" and "I don't have any STDs like herpes" - both are said to get sex without regard for the consequences to the other person. And men certainly are guilty of the latter. Lying to get sex came just after the oldest profession.

[kelpdiver 2]

Bolas

***
That doesn't establish a claimed verbal contract.

"Ladies and gentleman of the jury. Here are the facts. My client claimed under oath she said she was on birth control. Medical records obtained via court order show that not only was this not true, she had discussed pregnancy options with her doctor, as well as visited at least one sperm bank.

In addition to his sworn testimony, we have provided other witnesses and Internet posts all showing he had no interest in having a child at this time and that she wanted one.


I'm still waiting for the point where we establish that they made an oral contract. All you've proven here is that she seemed interested in kids (not necessarily with your client) and he was not, and of course that they did in fact get it on.

"My client claimed under oath" means jack shit. Which was the whole point. Without a recording, a witness (usually not one around when you're trying to get some), or a WRITTEN, signed contract, the woman merely needs to say "we never talked about it."

(Let's gloss over the part where her doctor refused to supply private medical records per HIPPA - I doubt that this would supercede)

[labrys 0]

Quote

Lying to get sex came just after the oldest profession.

No way. The oldest profession was born from the fact that some guys couldn't lie well enough to get laid, so they just gave up and went out of pocket.

Owned by Remi #?

[grue 1]

kelpdiver

There's absolutely no difference between "I'm on the pill" and "I don't have any STDs like herpes" - both are said to get sex without regard for the consequences to the other person. And men certainly are guilty of the latter. Lying to get sex came just after the oldest profession.

If you know or reasonably believe you might have an STD, say you don't, and proceed to have sex with someone, that's malicious and likely a criminal act.

If you have no reason to believe you have an STD and say that you were tested, you're a lying asshole, but it's quite a different thing.

Further, telling someone you're on birth control when you're not and THE WHOLE POINT is to cause them enormous damage, that's a third thing altogether. A guy with an STD is likely just trying to get laid. A better equivalence to your way of thinking would be a guy with herpes trying to intentionally infect someone just because he wants that person to be sick, and not caring about the sex.

cavete terrae.

[rehmwa 2]

kelpdiver

Now the boy in question claims it was non consensual sex and she was bigger than he was. Not sure I buy it, but it's either rape, or consensual sex. Its certainly not a case of an adult taking advantage of a substantially younger, less mature teenage who doesn't know to say no.

Switch it around - boy 18, girl 17, and then state that out loud in the forum and see what kind of response you get.

Now the girl in question claims it was non consensual sex and he was bigger than she was. Not sure I buy it

pretty much defines the double standard doesn't it?

Hell, she shouldn't have dressed that way.
Heck, her fault for going into that neighborhood.

in either scenario - the victim is either telling the truth, or lying. What's telling is the clear gender bias in people's responses. I thought we were supposed to judge people as individuals and be gender, race, etc blind. I thought that it was at least the -goal-

apparently not

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[turtlespeed 220]

airdvr

***Countersuit for fraud. Interesting idea. Even if it doesn't work, the court costs might nullify any benefit of the child support payments.

What? Here in Ohio you don't get a choice as to what you pay. They take mom's info and dad's info and plug it into a formula and it spits out how much to pay in child support. The only thing that is contestable is the information used to determine mom or dad's info. I can assure you the courts are not interested in who did what to whom.

So on top of that expense you suggest a lawsuit? Who wins in that scenario, other than the attorney.

Theoretically, she would have to pay you the amount of money that is determined by the courts to be fair recompense, theoretically.

I cant see any family law judge ever siding with the victim though.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Bolas 5]

How about this one?

http://www.supportguidelines.com/articles/art199903.html

Quote

The lesson one must take from S.F. v. T.M., however, is somewhat troubling: a man is strictly liable for where his sperm ends up even when he unknowingly and involuntarily engages in a sexual act. Instead of comparing the father's predicament with the mother's predicament in Division of Child Support Enforcement ex rel. Esther M. v. Mary L., No. 94-33812 (1994.DE.19031), where a mother was relieved of her child support obligation because she was raped, the court imposed a child support obligation because of the fact of paternity. This can only be termed a strict liability theory of sperm.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Bolas 5]

kelpdiver

******
That doesn't establish a claimed verbal contract.

"Ladies and gentleman of the jury. Here are the facts. My client claimed under oath she said she was on birth control. Medical records obtained via court order show that not only was this not true, she had discussed pregnancy options with her doctor, as well as visited at least one sperm bank.

In addition to his sworn testimony, we have provided other witnesses and Internet posts all showing he had no interest in having a child at this time and that she wanted one.


I'm still waiting for the point where we establish that they made an oral contract. All you've proven here is that she seemed interested in kids (not necessarily with your client) and he was not, and of course that they did in fact get it on.

"My client claimed under oath" means jack shit. Which was the whole point. Without a recording, a witness (usually not one around when you're trying to get some), or a WRITTEN, signed contract, the woman merely needs to say "we never talked about it."

(Let's gloss over the part where her doctor refused to supply private medical records per HIPPA - I doubt that this would supercede)

Since I learned currently male rape victims aren't even exempt from child support, what's the point in arguing this?

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.