Nelson & Winnie Mandela

[RonD1120 62]

Andy9o8

I know you're trying really hard in this troll-thread, Ron, and for a while it was amusing to just munch the popcorn and watch it develop predictably. But you're getting pretty sad now.

I agree, there wasn't much else to say but, you gave me a little more space.

Back when R. Reagan and M. Thatcher were heads of state our mutually shared enemy was Communism. The movement was being financed by the Soviets and spread in Africa, South and Central America through Liberation Theology.

This brings us to the present and, Jeremiah A. Wright Jr., now you know the rest of the story, P. Harvey would say.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Andy9o8 2]

I'm all out of popcorn. You ever tried Fiddle-Faddle? Stuff's addictive.

[Liemberg 0]

Quote

http://thebackbencher.co.uk/...bout-nelson-mandela/

Now what is incredibly funny about that list is that it sums up 5 acts of terrorism (and one failed attemp), commited by the militairy branch of the ANC between may 1983 and june 1988.

From 1964 untill 1990 however, mr. Mandela was a prisonner of the 'apartheid'-regime in South Africa - which would have made it pretty difficult form him, if not downright impossible, to personally carry out these acts of terror. And, while we are at it - the 'Sharpeville massacres' happened in 1960, thus preceding the forming of Umkhonto we Sizwe in june 1961...

Another thing that was to be found on the link you provided (that has expired since then) was the fact that a regional superpower like South -Africa, either under the leadership of mr. Mandela or that of mr. Botha, apparently buys tanks, jet-fighters and naval ships. Who would have thought that?

Also, you seem to forget that there was a legitimate war going on there and then, or a revolution if you will. Ever since Guy Fawkes these revolutionairies do try to blow up stuff and cause collateral damage in the process.

If the collateral damage is the problem than the good citizens of Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki would like to have a chat about their civilians, women and children with the governments of the UK and the USA.

And throwing all this precious tea into the Boston harbour - what were you guys thinking?

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[RonD1120 62]

Andy9o8

I'm all out of popcorn. You ever tried Fiddle-Faddle? Stuff's addictive.

My wife likes that sort of junk food. I'm more salsa and chips.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[ryoder 1,590]

Westboro Baptist Church to picket: http://news.iafrica.com/worldnews/890192.html

I really hope they do; It will be interesting to see how the SA authorities react.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[jakee 1,500]

RonD1120

Another corroborating article...

http://www.censorbugbear.org/black-racism/terrorism/nelson-mandela-the-bombing-record

Interesting quote in there - "That is why Mandela remained in prison until the appeaser Pres F W de Klerk freed him unconditionally."

The appeaser F.W. de Clerk.

Interesting connotations there.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[RonD1120 62]

ryoder

Westboro Baptist Church to picket: http://news.iafrica.com/worldnews/890192.html

I really hope they do; It will be interesting to see how the SA authorities react.

It would make exciting news. However, it does not appear on their schedule.

http://www.godhatesfags.com/schedule.html

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Meso 38]

Mandela's violent actions are not by any means secret, and should be common knowledge. However they were actions that were most definitely warranted under the conditions.

The oppressed people of South Africa had tried everything else to get change, they had tried paperwork, they had tried peaceful protests. But if you're held hostage and someone has a knife to your neck, you're not going to stop seeking to escape after asking him nicely. You do what you need to, to escape.

And Apartheid was most certainly as life threatening as having a knife to your neck. If you protested and went against the oppression, the police were set on you with violence.

I think many people don't understand Apartheid. Even many white South Africans are somehow unable to even conceive what went on. They claim to feel oppressed in today's society, if you feel oppressed today - then you have no idea of real oppression, Apartheid had it. I grew up here in the 80s and early 90s under Apartheid. I had non-white family and we were kicked out of a holiday area because of the colour of my uncle. He was banned from white beaches (vast majority of them), from public rest-rooms and most other white areas.

Mandela's and the people's fight was not for some stupid petty personal opinion on wanting to control other's actions. It wasn't something like legalizing weed either. It was a fight for the most basic of human rights, not living in constant oppression, abuse and humiliation.

And unfortunately, when your oppressors have a strangle hold, where you can shout all you want, they will block their ears. You can show up in numbers to show them that you will stand for freedom, only to get dogs set on you by police, or shot. Then violence becomes needed for liberation.

Violence was not what was wanted, it was the last resort.

What made Mandela a great person was not even that he was brave enough to risk his life or life in prison in order to give everyone a voice, but because of how he behaved after that.

What separated him from most other men was his understanding and forgiving nature. If people lock you up, take away your rights and kill those around you - when you manage to knock them down, the natural reaction is to kick them in the throat.

Mandela instead sought to help those people back up and work together. Even now, the current ANC points blame at the Apartheid government and uses it as an excuse in everything that happens. And they outwardly call out their hatred for those who ran it. Mandela however did no such thing. He just wanted unity between people. It takes a very big man to turn the other cheek in order to try create peace.

It's sad however that the current ANC government has completely done a 180 on Mandela's policies. Instead we're now left with a party who has the militant nature of those early ANC days where Mandela was fighting. But they are not fighting for freedom, they're now fighting for complete control of land and resources. It's no longer about unity and sharing, it's about greed and control.

With regards to Westboro. Good luck to them, if they really did do it, depending on where they did it. They may be welcomed to the true South Africa, where communities burn thieves alive. Their lives would most certainly be at risk. This isn't the US, no one is going to care about your freedom of speech if they don't like what you're saying. The communities here want to go to jail, since it's better inside than outside.

[Scratch 0]

Meso.
I think you are trying to explain colour to a blind man here....but nice try

[RonD1120 62]

Meso

Mandela's violent actions are not by any means secret, and should be common knowledge. However they were actions that were most definitely warranted under the conditions.

The oppressed people of South Africa had tried everything else to get change, they had tried paperwork, they had tried peaceful protests. But if you're held hostage and someone has a knife to your neck, you're not going to stop seeking to escape after asking him nicely. You do what you need to, to escape.

And Apartheid was most certainly as life threatening as having a knife to your neck. If you protested and went against the oppression, the police were set on you with violence.

I think many people don't understand Apartheid. Even many white South Africans are somehow unable to even conceive what went on. They claim to feel oppressed in today's society, if you feel oppressed today - then you have no idea of real oppression, Apartheid had it. I grew up here in the 80s and early 90s under Apartheid. I had non-white family and we were kicked out of a holiday area because of the colour of my uncle. He was banned from white beaches (vast majority of them), from public rest-rooms and most other white areas.

Mandela's and the people's fight was not for some stupid petty personal opinion on wanting to control other's actions. It wasn't something like legalizing weed either. It was a fight for the most basic of human rights, not living in constant oppression, abuse and humiliation.

And unfortunately, when your oppressors have a strangle hold, where you can shout all you want, they will block their ears. You can show up in numbers to show them that you will stand for freedom, only to get dogs set on you by police, or shot. Then violence becomes needed for liberation.

Violence was not what was wanted, it was the last resort.

What made Mandela a great person was not even that he was brave enough to risk his life or life in prison in order to give everyone a voice, but because of how he behaved after that.

What separated him from most other men was his understanding and forgiving nature. If people lock you up, take away your rights and kill those around you - when you manage to knock them down, the natural reaction is to kick them in the throat.

Mandela instead sought to help those people back up and work together. Even now, the current ANC points blame at the Apartheid government and uses it as an excuse in everything that happens. And they outwardly call out their hatred for those who ran it. Mandela however did no such thing. He just wanted unity between people. It takes a very big man to turn the other cheek in order to try create peace.

It's sad however that the current ANC government has completely done a 180 on Mandela's policies. Instead we're now left with a party who has the militant nature of those early ANC days where Mandela was fighting. But they are not fighting for freedom, they're now fighting for complete control of land and resources. It's no longer about unity and sharing, it's about greed and control.

With regards to Westboro. Good luck to them, if they really did do it, depending on where they did it. They may be welcomed to the true South Africa, where communities burn thieves alive. Their lives would most certainly be at risk. This isn't the US, no one is going to care about your freedom of speech if they don't like what you're saying. The communities here want to go to jail, since it's better inside than outside.

No disagreement from me. Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge and experience.

The point is that murder of innocent people is justifiable for some travesties of freedom and justice. The problem is who gets to decide what is justifiable?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Erroll 80]

Ron, either you are just extremely ignorant about South African history, or your attempt at trolling is just really, really bad. I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but unfortunately your posting history doesn't justify that, so I have to conclude that it is both.

[RonD1120 62]

Erroll

Ron, either you are just extremely ignorant about South African history, or your attempt at trolling is just really, really bad. I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but unfortunately your posting history doesn't justify that, so I have to conclude that it is both.

An Internet forum is an interactive entertainment medium. But, I just agreed with Meso. What did I get wrong about SA history? Are you saying he is ignorant as well?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[GeorgiaDon 362]

RonD1120

***Ron, either you are just extremely ignorant about South African history, or your attempt at trolling is just really, really bad. I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but unfortunately your posting history doesn't justify that, so I have to conclude that it is both.

An Internet forum is an interactive entertainment medium. But, I just agreed with Meso. What did I get wrong about SA history? Are you saying he is ignorant as well?You called the struggle against apartheid a "travesty of freedom and justice." There are only three possible explanations for that. Either you are completely ignorant of what apartheid meant for the lives of the non-white South African population, you are posting crap just to get a rise (which you have admitted to doing before), or you actually believe that non-whites had no right to rebel against their white "masters". None of these options paint you in a very favorable light.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[ryoder 1,590]

I spent some time reading this over the weekend: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid_in_South_Africa

It was quite eye-opening. I had always assumed apartheid was an established situation that had been around for a couple centuries. Now I know that it started in 1948, and was progressively getting worse over the following decades. I also now also have a better understanding of the film "District 9".

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[muff528 3]

GeorgiaDon

******Ron, either you are just extremely ignorant about South African history, or your attempt at trolling is just really, really bad. I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but unfortunately your posting history doesn't justify that, so I have to conclude that it is both.

An Internet forum is an interactive entertainment medium. But, I just agreed with Meso. What did I get wrong about SA history? Are you saying he is ignorant as well?You called the struggle against apartheid a "travesty of freedom and justice." There are only three possible explanations for that. Either you are completely ignorant of what apartheid meant for the lives of the non-white South African population, you are posting crap just to get a rise (which you have admitted to doing before), or you actually believe that non-whites had no right to rebel against their white "masters". None of these options paint you in a very favorable light.

Don

I don't think Ron was calling "the struggle against apartheid" a travesty. It looked like he agreed, after Meso's explanation, that apartheid might be a "travesty of freedom and justice" and that the use of certain tactics might be justifiable.

I read Ron's response like this:

"The point is that murder of innocent people (by some, like Mandela, et al.) is justifiable for some travesties of freedom and justice (like apartheid and other forms of tyranny)."

He followed that by a pretty good question, although I don't think there is any question regarding apartheid in SA. I think that throughout history, the legitimacy of some "rebellions", which might outwardly appear righteous and just, might be open for debate.

[RonD1120 62]

GeorgiaDon

******Ron, either you are just extremely ignorant about South African history, or your attempt at trolling is just really, really bad. I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but unfortunately your posting history doesn't justify that, so I have to conclude that it is both.

An Internet forum is an interactive entertainment medium. But, I just agreed with Meso. What did I get wrong about SA history? Are you saying he is ignorant as well?You called the struggle against apartheid a "travesty of freedom and justice." There are only three possible explanations for that. Either you are completely ignorant of what apartheid meant for the lives of the non-white South African population, you are posting crap just to get a rise (which you have admitted to doing before), or you actually believe that non-whites had no right to rebel against their white "masters". None of these options paint you in a very favorable light.

Don

You and Erroll make absolutely no sense to me. I agreed with Meso. I say that Apartheid was a travesty of justice and freedom. Where is your conflict? Is it my use of the word travesty?

How about, Apartheid was an abomination of justice and freedom. Or, it was the devastation of justice and freedom. Or, it was bad ju ju.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Quote

I also now also have a better understanding of the film "District 9".

An amazing depiction of apartheid, and the dehumanization that took place.

To me, the scene with the egg's being burned was one of the best captured moments of the almost 'glee' that dehumanization allowed when committing atrocities.

Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Skyrad 0]

Winnie is his ex wife and had been for many many years.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[GeorgiaDon 362]

Quote

I read Ron's response like this:

"The point is that murder of innocent people (by some, like Mandela, et al.) is justifiable for some travesties of freedom and justice (like apartheid and other forms of tyranny)."

Perhaps, but if so it is poorly phrased, and I still can't see that meaning to it. Ron wrote: "The point is that murder of innocent people is justifiable for some travesties of freedom and justice." In my experience "for" in this context means "to achieve", not "against". As an example, if I was to say "I am willing to fight for freedom" I doubt that you (or anyone) would read my meaning as "I am willing to fight against freedom". Note also that Ron already branded Mandella a murderer (post #19), so it seems more logical to me to read Ron's sentence as a statement that innocent people were murdered in order to achieve a travesty of freedom and justice.

However, I will concede that it is possible that Ron's sentence is so garbled that his meaning cannot be understood. Then we are left with his previous statements that Mandella was a murderer, and the fact that he thought it appropriate to "honor" Mandella's death by starting a thread to post links condemning the struggle for freedom by black South Africans, condemning Mandella for actions taken by the ANC while he was locked up in prison, linking Mandella to crimes committed by his wife while he was in prison, and branding de Klerk an "appeaser". He does seem to have a certain "theme" going.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[RonD1120 62]

GeorgiaDon

Quote

I read Ron's response like this:

"The point is that murder of innocent people (by some, like Mandela, et al.) is justifiable for some travesties of freedom and justice (like apartheid and other forms of tyranny)."

Perhaps, but if so it is poorly phrased, and I still can't see that meaning to it. Ron wrote: "The point is that murder of innocent people is justifiable for some travesties of freedom and justice." In my experience "for" in this context means "to achieve", not "against". As an example, if I was to say "I am willing to fight for freedom" I doubt that you (or anyone) would read my meaning as "I am willing to fight against freedom". Note also that Ron already branded Mandella a murderer (post #19), so it seems more logical to me to read Ron's sentence as a statement that innocent people were murdered in order to achieve a travesty of freedom and justice.

However, I will concede that it is possible that Ron's sentence is so garbled that his meaning cannot be understood. Then we are left with his previous statements that Mandella was a murderer, and the fact that he thought it appropriate to "honor" Mandella's death by starting a thread to post links condemning the struggle for freedom by black South Africans, condemning Mandella for actions taken by the ANC while he was locked up in prison, linking Mandella to crimes committed by his wife while he was in prison, and branding de Klerk an "appeaser". He does seem to have a certain "theme" going.

Don

Seriously! Is your mind that convoluted?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 62]

And look what keeps popping up...

http://dcclothesline.com/2013/12/07/mandela-dies-hype-continues/

http://dcclothesline.com/2013/12/06/truth-nelson-mandela-terrorist/

http://dcclothesline.com/2013/12/08/mandela-pro-abortion-pro-gay-marriage-high-ranking-communist/

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jakee 1,500]

Keeps popping up? It's one person repeating theirself.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Skyrad 0]

Having been in that cel I can tell you its bloody small. A few books and a cot would make it smaller still. Also the cell interior changed throughout his incarceration.
Having lived through 94/95 in South Africa I can tell you that man earn my respect. It would have been very easy to come out say an angry word or two and it would have been a blood bath. Mandela really became a hero by the way he led the nation. Was he a terrorist? Yes at one point in his life. But it was who he became not who he was that mattered the most. It was the distance that he travelled not just the road that made him one of the most loved and respected figures in the last century.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

PBS had a Frontline special on last night about Mandela.

A little bit of halo-polishing, but overall pretty good.

The most striking thing about it was his unwavering insistence on being treated as a human being, being treated with dignity. And treating others the same way, no matter what.

That carried over to when he became President.
No reprisals, no revenge, nothing like that. He even invited the widows of the former leaders (Botha's widow among them) to a lunch, where they sat and talked like it was the most natural thing in the world to do.

Compared to what happened in other places (Rhodesia/Zimbabwe is the best comparison), it was an amazing act of compassion and forgiveness.

South Africa is far from perfect, and has deteriorated a fair amount since Mandela left office, but it's a long, long way from the chaos that is Zimbabwe.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[ryoder 1,590]

wolfriverjoe

PBS had a Frontline special on last night about Mandela.

A little bit of halo-polishing, but overall pretty good.

The most striking thing about it was his unwavering insistence on being treated as a human being, being treated with dignity. And treating others the same way, no matter what.

That carried over to when he became President.
No reprisals, no revenge, nothing like that. He even invited the widows of the former leaders (Botha's widow among them) to a lunch, where they sat and talked like it was the most natural thing in the world to do.

Compared to what happened in other places (Rhodesia/Zimbabwe is the best comparison), it was an amazing act of compassion and forgiveness.

South Africa is far from perfect, and has deteriorated a fair amount since Mandela left office, but it's a long, long way from the chaos that is Zimbabwe.

I just watched it.
Excellent!
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/mandela/

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.