12-13-13, School Shooting, Colorado

[rushmc 23]

quade

You probably think that song Carly Simon wrote was about you too. However, my original comment here wasn't directed towards you, was it?

No
She was writing about Obama
She just did not know it at the time

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[DanG 1]

Actually, she was writring about Warren Beatty.

- Dan G

[rhaig 0]

quade

***

Quote

Looks like its too early to tell anything about this situation. I can nearly guarantee you don't know what weapons or magazine capacities were used at the moment you wrote that.

None of the proposed laws would have prevented this...

1. Which would have been completely uninformed at the moment I wrote what you just quoted.
2. It is only now with 20/20 hindsight given to you after several days you can even attempt to make this subjective statement.

there. you've covered your ass from drawing conclusions in absence of facts (human nature).

can we move on and talk about all the things people want to do because "think of the children" and how ineffective they may or may not be? After a few weeks of this Zimmerman will be back in the news or something just as unproductive will come up.

--
Rob

[lawrocket 3]

quade

*********

Quote

Looks like its too early to tell anything about this situation. I can nearly guarantee you don't know what weapons or magazine capacities were used at the moment you wrote that.

None of the proposed laws would have prevented this...

1. Which would have been completely uninformed at the moment I wrote what you just quoted.
2. It is only now with 20/20 hindsight given to you after several days you can even attempt to make this subjective statement.
Here I said that laws designed to prevent school shootings were broken right after it. I was correct. It was easy to write that when a school shooting happened.

You probably think that song Carly Simon wrote was about you too. However, my original comment here wasn't directed towards you, was it?

Your earlier comment was. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4574313#4574313

About my jumping to conclusions that a bunch of laws were broken when a person shows up with a firearm on campus and shoots someone. I don't think that it required any stretch to think, "had the kid lived, he would have been arrested for suspicion of having committed a crime."

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[toolbox 0]

yes I would say you don't need a law degree to say that,but the law degree does give you more credibility

[toolbox 0]

>she was writting about Warren Beatty

Carly was singing about an openly gay record producer. I think his name was David Geffen.

[DanG 1]

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Carly was singing about an openly gay record producer. I think his name was David Geffen.

From Wiki:

Quote

Simon noted that when she first wrote the song in 1971, she hadn't even met David Geffen yet

- Dan G

[rushmc 23]

DanG

Quote

Carly was singing about an openly gay record producer. I think his name was David Geffen.

From Wiki:

Quote

Simon noted that when she first wrote the song in 1971, she hadn't even met David Geffen yet

See
The song is about Obama

No one fits her words better

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[DanG 1]

Quote

The song is about Obama

Do you know any of the lyrics besides the chorus?

BTW, this discussion is the most productive thing to happen in an SC gun thread, ever.

- Dan G

[toolbox 0]

Why does it always have to be a gun thing when this shit happens?
Why can't it be a batshit crazy thing?
This kid was a huge fan of the cookbook and it could have been much worse if he had brought more than just a 12 gauge and some molatav beverages. What if he had gotten ahold of some high capacity pressure cookers?
He could have cooked up a big old heaping pile of carnage that only high explosives can dish out.

[quade 4]

toolbox

Why does it always have to be a gun thing when this shit happens?
Why can't it be a batshit crazy thing?
This kid was a huge fan of the cookbook and it could have been much worse if he had brought more than just a 12 gauge and some molatav beverages. What if he had gotten ahold of some high capacity pressure cookers?
He could have cooked up a big old heaping pile of carnage that only high explosives can dish out.

Because, and this actually is the point and reason, a gun is super easy and takes little to no preparation. The perp picks it up, loads it, pulls the trigger and people die.

Sure, some folks use other weapons as well, but the gun is THE go to weapon of choice.

That's why.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[toolbox 0]

It is actually very easy to make things that explode out of easily obtained chemicals,and then there is the tried and true mass murderers fire bomb that is extremely easy to procure the components for.
It seems this kid was mad at one specific person and the classmate simply got in the way.
The death count could have been huge if he had tossed a few fire bombs into a class room full of kids,not to mention the potential number of burnt and maimed survivors.
A few gallons of gasoline,a bic lighter,and a few rags is still a lot cheaper,and easier to to get than ammo and a gun.
These bombs are also far easier to get past metal detectors than guns and ammo. He had some molotavs but luckily never got to use them,or shoot more people because of the good guy with a gun that was there to fight back.

[quade 4]

I didn't say making bombs was difficult, but they are more difficult than simply picking up a gun. That is pretty much unquestionably true.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[toolbox 0]

I think guns and ammo are more expensive,and harder to get than gasoline,lighters,rags,and containers are.
I don't like the idea of crazy people getting ahold of any kind of weapons.
There have been bombings,shootings,and people have been run down with cars,ect,and the only common denominators in all these violent acts are the crazy people.

[quade 4]

toolbox

I think guns and ammo are more expensive,and harder to get than gasoline,lighters,rags,and containers are.

Again, not the point. They're more portable. They're "safer" to have around right up to the moment the trigger is pressed. The REASON people use guns is because, all things considered, they're easier to use.

I mean, holy crap dude, WHY do you want a gun to defend yourself against a home invasion rather than a pressure cooker bomb?

Same reason.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[toolbox 0]

I am not saying that a nice wide grip high cap 1911 style 45acp pistol is not handy for self defense.
But fire bombs and explosives seem to be more effective at killing larger numbers of people than firearms.
This is why terrorist both foreign and domestic, which are considred mass murderers by most of us, prefer bombs.
But most people do not want to kill the whole block when they are defending themselves from a couple of attackers.
So you think that if dangerous people can't get guns they will just stop being dangerous?
I think not. They will use something else,like cars driving up the sidewalks,or burning down crowded buildings, bombs,ect.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

toolbox

I am not saying that a nice wide grip high cap 1911 style 45acp pistol is not handy for self defense.
But fire bombs and explosives seem to be more effective at killing larger numbers of people than firearms.
This is why terrorist both foreign and domestic, which are considred mass murderers by most of us, prefer bombs.
But most people do not want to kill the whole block when they are defending themselves from a couple of attackers.
So you think that if dangerous people can't get guns they will just stop being dangerous?
I think not. They will use something else,like cars driving up the sidewalks,or burning down crowded buildings, bombs,ect.

No, it won't make dangerous people les dangerous. What is reduces is the ability to act on an impulse.

When lots of guns are around, like they are in the US, they are easy to be used on impulse. That is significantly harder when you have to build a bomb first, or some of the other options bandied about.

[rushmc 23]

SkyDekker

***I am not saying that a nice wide grip high cap 1911 style 45acp pistol is not handy for self defense.
But fire bombs and explosives seem to be more effective at killing larger numbers of people than firearms.
This is why terrorist both foreign and domestic, which are considred mass murderers by most of us, prefer bombs.
But most people do not want to kill the whole block when they are defending themselves from a couple of attackers.
So you think that if dangerous people can't get guns they will just stop being dangerous?
I think not. They will use something else,like cars driving up the sidewalks,or burning down crowded buildings, bombs,ect.

No, it won't make dangerous people les dangerous. What is reduces is the ability to act on an impulse.

When lots of guns are around, like they are in the US, they are easy to be used on impulse. That is significantly harder when you have to build a bomb first, or some of the other options bandied about.

IF impusle shootings happen

Have any stats on this? Or is this just another diversion away from real issues?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[quade 4]

rushmc

IF impusle shootings happen

You mean like when a kid gets cut from a debate team?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[normiss 858]

Wait, I thought this was about the guns?

[rushmc 23]

quade

***IF impusle shootings happen

You mean like when a kid gets cut from a debate team?

It would seem by your implication here, that any shooting, is impulsive. No matter the time lapse?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[champu 1]

quade

Because, and this actually is the point and reason, a gun is super easy and takes little to no preparation. The perp picks it up, loads it, pulls the trigger and people die.

Sure, some folks use other weapons as well, but the gun is THE go to weapon of choice.

That's why.

You have to aim them too... that step is important.

Look, keeping people from snapping and doing things like this, as a goal in itself, is not something that people are going to get in your way over. Of course nobody wants these incidents to happen. But even the most defensible of suggestions like, "don't allow firearms sales to people who are mentally ill" requires an improved mental health system that people can get into and get help from before they do something like this in order to function. And, if the system ends up being any good, it can help prevent violence/suicides by other means as well and we can stop having these "well they could just make a bomb" arguments.

And don't sell yourself short by saying, "well I don't have an answer, but there's some smart experts and law makers out there and the set of gun laws that are really gonna make a difference are right around the corner." It's really not the case. If you see it as a difficult problem it's because it is, and just because someone has come up with some proposed legislation, it doesn't mean they're smarter than you or that they've worked longer and harder on the problem than you have. Every year brings another volley of crap proving again and again that people are willing to try anything if it doesn't affect them negatively. All I really ask is that people consider the attack vector of proposed gun laws critically rather than simply, "If I can imagine a way that this might help, then it's worth writing into law."

[lawrocket 3]

SkyDekker

No, it won't make dangerous people les dangerous. What is reduces is the ability to act on an impulse.

When lots of guns are around, like they are in the US, they are easy to be used on impulse. That is significantly harder when you have to build a bomb first, or some of the other options bandied about.

What's intersesting is how few of these mass shootings are done on impulse. I have little doubt that this self-absorbed egotistical pinko punk planned this out. Go buy a shotgun. Nothing amiss in his background. Get his shotgun. Buy rounds. Make some Molotov cocktails. Set up for some carnage, have fun and martyr yourself.

As it stands, it's a tragedy for two families. The picture released shows that the victim was a very pretty white girl, which just makes it all the more tragic than the dark-skinned male youths being murdered every day. A pretty white girl getting shot? At school, no less?!?! That's far worse than the inner city holocaust going on.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

What's intersesting is how few of these mass shootings are done on impulse. I have little doubt that this self-absorbed egotistical pinko punk planned this out. Go buy a shotgun. Nothing amiss in his background. Get his shotgun. Buy rounds. Make some Molotov cocktails. Set up for some carnage, have fun and martyr yourself.

Right, which can all be done rather quickly and easily. More easily than building a bomb with a detonation device etc.

For me, there is no doubt that guns make acting on these "impulses" easier. As I have stated many times before, that does not mean I think that banning guns in the US is the solution. I don't think it will resolve anything at this point. These shootings are simply the result of the path the US has chosen. Actions have consequences.

Quote

As it stands, it's a tragedy for two families. The picture released shows that the victim was a very pretty white girl, which just makes it all the more tragic than the dark-skinned male youths being murdered every day. A pretty white girl getting shot? At school, no less?!?! That's far worse than the inner city holocaust going on.

Whole different issue, but one I wholeheartedly agree with you on.

[ryoder 1,590]

The victim has died: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/12/21/22001114-colorado-high-school-shooting-victim-claire-davis-dies

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.