A&E Suspends Phil Robertson

[labrys 0]

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Absolutely. I try to get to a deeper level and get branded a troll. Or get told I'm "one of the stupidest smart people."

Well.. FWIW, I can't think of many people who have posted more thoughtful comments here than you and I appreciate that.

Owned by Remi #?

[LyraM45 0]

lawrocket

***

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And of course, you and lyra and Rush are taking whatever opportunity y'all can to make the post about the person.

Well... I haven't really weighed in on this before I suggested that both sides of this particular argument are being incredibly superficial. At least that's what I think I might have said in my own head.

Absolutely. I try to get to a deeper level and get branded a troll. Or get told I'm "one of the stupidest smart people."

Because that"s what the free exchange of ideas is about - trying to improve one's jive by disjiving others.

To your benefit - you pointed that out.

And I spent most of my posts asking for clarification on what you meant, mostly agreeing with you, and trying to engage on that deeper level and I'm basically superficial, making the posts about the poster and nothing else? Hhhmmm.....

Pass the tylenol, indeed. I think I'm out of here with the few others that already left.

Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

[lawrocket 3]

And I kept trying to clarify: Why is one form of intolerance reasonable but another is not?

How do I or anyone reconcile the idea that, say, cultures are unique and no better or worse but still think, "That's fucked up?" How is it that I can want to be open to other belief systems but still want to close my mind?

I don't view myself as any form of authority. So why do I view myself as wanting to convince bigots to be different?

It's all subjective. Why does everybody think they are better than others who disagree? What makes Robertson bad and his detractors good? What is the determining authority?

The only authority I can think of is "me." And I don't think I have any authority in telling others how to treat or think about others - only authority in how I interact with others and how others interact with me.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[quade 4]

lawrocket

Why is one form of intolerance reasonable but another is not?

I think you're being tripped up by the overall false equivalency implied by the question.

In any societal relationship, one party (group) will hold power over another party (group).

This could be; man/woman, boss/employee, owner/dog, master/slave, majority/minority. Doesn't really matter. In NO case will both sides be equal. One will dominate and the other will subjugate.

When the dominating party uses their intolerance to further control the other party, it is by definition an unfair situation.

Pointing that out and voicing opposition to it is not the same thing.

The attempt of the dominating party to use this false equivalency is shameless.

It's pretty much the same reason why sexual harassment suits generally stick between boss/employee, but rarely are even possible the other way 'round.

It's why when a large man beats his diminutive wife it's fucked up, but if she kills him in self defense it's pretty understandable.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[skypuppy 1]

quade

***Why is one form of intolerance reasonable but another is not?

I think you're being tripped up by the overall false equivalency implied by the question.

In any societal relationship, one party (group) will hold power over another party (group).

This could be; man/woman, boss/employee, owner/dog, master/slave, majority/minority. Doesn't really matter. In NO case will both sides be equal. One will dominate and the other will subjugate.

When the dominating party uses their intolerance to further control the other party, it is by definition an unfair situation.

Pointing that out and voicing opposition to it is not the same thing.

The attempt of the dominating party to use this false equivalency is shameless.

It's pretty much the same reason why sexual harassment suits generally stick between boss/employee, but rarely are even possible the other way 'round.

unless you're bill clinton getting a bj in the hall outside your office...

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[AndyBoyd 0]

lawrocket

Why is one form of intolerance reasonable but another is not? ... It's all subjective.

At some point you have to make a moral judgment. When you do that, the intolerance of guys like this Duck Dynasty dipshit become offensive and wrong. A previous poster called you the dumbest smart guy he ever saw. He was right. As much as I disagree with Rushmc, at least the guy takes a stand. You just twist yourself up into intellectual knots with word games. You are completely overthinking this tolerance/intolerance thing. Some friendly advice, relax, take a step back, find your core principals, and move out from there. Stop the silly word games. You are trying way too hard.

[lawrocket 3]

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In any societal relationship, one party (group) will hold power over another party (group).

How does this apply to gays and Robertson? Who has the power? And in this circumstance, is it not Robertson who has been smacked down? And by whom? Society who found it unacceptable? Certainly by A&E. Is not Robertson - in many of the dimensions - the person who is of lesser power?

This is where, I think, my issue is. He is NOT the one in power. Others hold power over him. He is the subservient/subjugated by plenty (certainly not all) metrics.

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When the dominating party uses their intolerance to further control the other party, it is by definition an unfair situation.

Exactly! Robertson was suspended. In this case, his employer (A&E) - and society in general - has used its intolerance of his viewpoint to further control him.

You've enunciated the quandary in a way that I couldn't. Admittedly, it's looking at it from a different angle. I'm sure MOST would view him as the one with power. But in the end, he is yielding to power held over him, isn't he?

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It's pretty much the same reason why sexual harassment suits generally stick between boss/employee, but rarely are even possible the other way 'round.

Bingo. The boss/employee relationship. I've been boss. I've been employee. As you yourself wrote, "Make a bonehead comment in public that reflects poorly on the company you work for and you probably will be fired." http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4577725#4577725

In some ways I agree. This is right and correct. But you've also indicated the master/subservient relationship that is unequal. And you stated that when the "dominating party uses their intolerance to further control the other party, it is by definition an unfair situation."

You and I believe exactly the same thing. What I've done it put together exactly what you wrote and put the perspective to it.

RObertson was the employee. The dominant party (A&E) used its intolerance of Robertson to further control the other party. By definition that is unfair.

BUT - it is an employee/employer situation. And the employer has the right - if not duty - to control the message of its employees/agents. Which IS fair.

I cannot, with reason, reconcile how it is both inherently unfair and yet reasonable to fire someone. I think it's right what A&E did. And I think it's unfair.

I think it's right how society responded to Robertson. And I think it's unfair.

Do you see my point now? My cognizance is dissonating right now. I'm trolling myself. And I'm not trolling you - look at your statements (each of which I agree with) and see how they are irreconcilable. But it's okay because we find it acceptable based only on the SUBJECT.

Edit: it's exactly what I was looking for. Identity of the reasons why I was finding it both reasonable and unfair.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[quade 4]

lawrocket

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In any societal relationship, one party (group) will hold power over another party (group).

How does this apply to gays and Robertson? Who has the power?

Robertson by virtue of "the bully pulpit" granted to him solely due to his position in association with the program. Before he was hired, he never would have had access to it. He has abused his relationship with the company.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[lawrocket 3]

quade

***

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In any societal relationship, one party (group) will hold power over another party (group).

How does this apply to gays and Robertson? Who has the power?

Robertson by virtue of "the bully pulpit" granted to him solely due to his position in association with the program. Before he was hired, he never would have had access to it. He has abused his relationship with the company.

What are your thoughts on the rest of my post?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[rushmc 23]

lawrocket

***

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You are thinking
They are feeling
There is no common ground

Seems pretty clear that you classify anyone who doesn't agree with you as "feeling" instead of "thinking"

And of course, you and lyra and Rush are taking whatever opportunity y'all can to make the post about the person.

Jesus, Rush - I am practically BEGGING to get off of flaming posters and about the indivudal posters and you made it about me. And those that are following are making it about them and you.

Pass the tylenol..

The problem really is, this is a manufactured issue
And you are buying into it as well
Phil has his opinions
Some agree some dont
But it cant end there
There has to be a vilification to avoid a real discussion about this or anything the PC crowd uses as a weapon

I stopped trying long ago because, those who raise this issue to the level of racism, are impossible to have any thoughtful discussion with (so I am guilty)

Notice, I have not talked about Phil or his opinion
I have only mentioned those that are grinding their teeth over the issue

A & E needs to get their ass sued off over this
Not because of whether or not they believe with him but rather for taking an action.

In the end the public will have the final say and that is as it should be
But the race baiters and the PC bigot industry need to inflame issues like this for thier own profit and power

And today, there is no group more vile and vitriolic than the homosexual activists groups. THEY are the least tolerant people on the planet. You MUST agree with them or they will label you and try and take you down

I got no time for this
And this thread is a perfect example of those flamers on patrol

It seems you have gotten caught up in it too

But, I did not try and make this about you

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[regulator 0]

Andy9o8

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TB, the QB who backed up PR at Lousiana Tech

Yeah, that totally turns the debate on its ear.

The man has probably just as much credentials as you do yet you want to berate him over and over again. You do know that if you twist that 2x4 sideways you can remove it safely from your ass right?

[BillyVance 34]

Charlie Sheen has reportedly bashed Phil Robertson for his anti-gay comments...

Uhhhhhhh, hello????

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[Andy9o8 2]

BillyVance

Charlie Sheen has reportedly bashed Phil Robertson for his anti-gay comments...

Uhhhhhhh, hello????

My earlier point being: I doubt most people could possibly care less what either Terry Bradshaw OR Charlie Sheen think about this. Now, if Larry The Cable Guy were to weigh-in on this, him I'd listen to.

[champu 1]

I think it's all the calls to action like "so and so should be sued..." and groups constantly bringing things to the polls like CA Prop 8 that make it very difficult to see differences of opinion as simply that.

It's very difficult to hear someone speak ill of a group of people or present an objectionable viewpoint without imagining them standing behind a voting curtain and using the government to impose ill or their objectionable viewpoint on others as well.

I'm happy to debate other people's opinions on the sources of problems and eventually agree to disagree, but when it ends codified in law it is more than disagreeing.

[quade 4]

lawrocket

******

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In any societal relationship, one party (group) will hold power over another party (group).

How does this apply to gays and Robertson? Who has the power?

Robertson by virtue of "the bully pulpit" granted to him solely due to his position in association with the program. Before he was hired, he never would have had access to it. He has abused his relationship with the company.
What are your thoughts on the rest of my post?

I think you've misidentified the nature of the power and abuse.

The original "sin" in this rests squarely on the shoulders of Phil Robertson who used his powers of the bully pulpit to spread hate from his super majority group of "Christians" and "old white men" to the minority of gays and people of color.

A&E doesn't "hate" Phil Robertson. It's nothing personal, it's just business.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[labrys 0]

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A&E doesn't "hate" Phil Robertson. It's nothing personal, it's just business.

"Many fans asked for my thoughts on the "Duck Dynasty" controversy. They pressed and pressed, but I refused to quack.

But I can't duck this issue forever. I don't really care feather someone on a reality show said something about gays that didn't fit the bill. He's entitled to his opinion, even if it's for the birds. But the network also is worried about flocking with its base, so if it feels it should drake him over the coals for making his fowl comments, so be it.

So that's migrate opinion." - George Takei

Owned by Remi #?

[Andy9o8 2]

labrys

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A&E doesn't "hate" Phil Robertson. It's nothing personal, it's just business.

"Many fans asked for my thoughts on the "Duck Dynasty" controversy. They pressed and pressed, but I refused to quack.

But I can't duck this issue forever. I don't really care feather someone on a reality show said something about gays that didn't fit the bill. He's entitled to his opinion, even if it's for the birds. But the network also is worried about flocking with its base, so if it feels it should drake him over the coals for making his fowl comments, so be it.

So that's migrate opinion." - George Takei

George is awesome.
And a silly goose.

[freethefly 6]

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The problem really is, this is a manufactured issue

Marc, I agree with you but, may I add, I think it deals more with action-reaction argument and rational expectation. Did Robertson expect a reaction to his action? Did Disney expect a reaction to their action? If the answers are yes then, yes it is manufactured and each side got what they expected to get. If the answers are no then, each side was blindsided by the reaction and did not expect the fallout. I suspect that each side expected the reaction that came out from their actions therefore, this was all manufactured. Hell, just look at the ratings and the money that is being gained. It is a win-win on both sides.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Andy9o8 2]

freethefly

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The problem really is, this is a manufactured issue

Marc, I agree with you but, may I add, I think it deals more with action-reaction argument and rational expectation. Did Robertson expect a reaction to his action? Did Disney expect a reaction to their action? If the answers are yes then, yes it is manufactured and each side got what they expected to get. If the answers are no then, each side was blindsided by the reaction and did not expect the fallout. I suspect that each side expected the reaction that came out from their actions therefore, this was all manufactured. Hell, just look at the ratings and the money that is being gained. It is a win-win on both sides.

Completely agree on all points

[jakee 1,489]

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Paul - the question is whether intolerance should be tolerated. It's a logical quandary.

Not in the real world. Other people can understand that intolerance of intolerance of certain things doesn't mean intolerance of all intolerance.

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I then asked whether "intolerance" is a bad thing. Or, whether it's simply intolerance of competing ideals that people hate so much.

False dichotomy.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,489]

rushmc

***

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I did watch the whole interview. I am guessing you didnt

Oh I have. and I've also looked at the backlash he's getting and guess what: It's about the homophobia thing. You've thrown your knee jerk anti-race-card-card into the wrong game.

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Phil is not an anti gay bigot

His words betray him.

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The real bigots are those who attack him
Not for what he said (which is different than you and the radical imply) But for what he believes

Yes. They attack him for the radical nature of his bigoted beliefs. He doesn't get a pass on homophobia because it's couched in religion. Why should he? You don't give Islamic people a pass on sexism when it's justified with the Koran, do you?

Here you expose yourself and your bigoted biases.

No I don't. Explain how you think I do?

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He clearly stated he loves all people
God will sort out the rest

And he clearly stated all the ugly stuff you've conveniently left out too. As an example, if someone says that "All those damn blacks are criminals and drug addict scum! But I'm not judging them I love everyone" he's still a racist.

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How you can you live with yourself

Wonderfully

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,489]

lawrocket

And I kept trying to clarify: Why is one form of intolerance reasonable but another is not?

Because there are gay people, and there are nazis. There are Klan members and there are Jews. There are Islamic Extremists and there are sci-fi fans. Each a group of people holding a common philosophy or whatever, but you can tell the difference.

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How do I or anyone reconcile the idea that, say, cultures are unique and no better or worse but still think, "That's fucked up?" How is it that I can want to be open to other belief systems but still want to close my mind?

Becasue you've been brainwashed into thinking that not accepting every idea is closed minded? It doesn't take long to figure out that some things are fucked up. You could learn in 5 minutes all you need to know to decide that the Saudi Mutaween are fucked up barbarians, and it isn't closed minded to make that decision. Why should it be?


Reverting back to form: unscrunch your panties, man up and be ok with making a stand. Simple.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kelpdiver 2]

lawrocket

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When the dominating party uses their intolerance to further control the other party, it is by definition an unfair situation.

Exactly! Robertson was suspended. In this case, his employer (A&E) - and society in general - has used its intolerance of his viewpoint to further control him.

When gays aren't still fighting for the right to marry on a state by state basis, and queer bashing has fallen from our common dictionary, then maybe you can pretend they are the majority in power.

[jakee 1,489]

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And today, there is no group more vile and vitriolic than the homosexual activists groups. THEY are the least tolerant people on the planet. You MUST agree with them or they will label you and try and take you down

Hey Rush, do you want to take a look at the "life in prison for being gay?" thread and maybe modify this opinion slightly, or do you claim that gay rights activists are less tolerant and more vile than people who want the death penalty for gays?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rushmc 23]

jakee

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And today, there is no group more vile and vitriolic than the homosexual activists groups. THEY are the least tolerant people on the planet. You MUST agree with them or they will label you and try and take you down

Hey Rush, do you want to take a look at the "life in prison for being gay?" thread and maybe modify this opinion slightly, or do you claim that gay rights activists are less tolerant and more vile than people who want the death penalty for gays?

I will repeat
Please try and keep up
there are no more vile and vitriolic activists groups today than the gay and lesbian activists groups

Please stop redirecting
You look silly trying that

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln