Democrats introduce bill to end the death penalty

[kallend 2,027]

normiss

We have more than enough current gun laws to cover any aspect of every incident.
Why do people chose to ignore that?
Or just the fact that criminals could generally care less about laws anyway?
Sure, create more gun laws, to what end?
More charges against someone going away for life for a gun crime?

Don't need more gun laws. Need fewer, more effective and uniform laws.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[normiss 806]

You know I won't disagree.....I'm just confused by the lack of focus.
Repeatedly.

[davjohns 1]

jakee

Then even by your own metric your argument falls down. Saying no to the death penalty is clearly easier and more straightforward than balancing a budget.

Clearly. That's why it hasn't generated any debate ever. Interesting that you think it is a simple solution for everyone to agree with you.

Quote

(But your metric is dumb. The concept that things must happen one after the other, with each issue tied up with a little bow before moving on to the next is nonsense. As you pointed out, there are 535 of them. They can't think about 2 things at once?)

So, they really have been passing balanced budgets on time? I wonder why I can't find any mention of it anywhere.

Quote

((And the juxtaposition of jury/legislator is still a cop-out non-sequitur. There's no suggestion of trusting a legislator over a jury or vice versa. They operate in 2 different spheres and the proposed legislation doesn't change that.))

I trust the jury to apply justice to the specific situation more than I trust the legislators to tell the jury what is right in a specific situation. I think I made that clear. I understand that you disagree. You clearly think the US Government is composed of above average thinkers doing a great job.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[jakee 1,500]

Quote

Clearly. That's why it hasn't generated any debate ever. Interesting that you think it is a simple solution for everyone to agree with you.

The arguments for and against a death penalty are not that complicated, and when it comes down to it all you need to decide is yes or no. So yes, it's clearly an easier and more straightforward issue to deal with than balancing a budget.

Look, instead of being snide why didn't you explicitly state that you think that yes or no on the death penalty is more complicated than fixing the economy? Is it because you know that sounds daft.

Quote

So, they really have been passing balanced budgets on time? I wonder why I can't find any mention of it anywhere.

And clearly that's because they've spent too much time arguing about the death penalty! Come on, you know you're just talking bollocks now. The reason they don't pass a good budget on time is because they're more interested in fighting with each other over the budget. It's not because they don't have time.

Quote

I trust the jury to apply justice to the specific situation more than I trust the legislators to tell the jury what is right in a specific situation. I think I made that clear. I understand that you disagree. You clearly think the US Government is composed of above average thinkers doing a great job.

The only things clear are that you're willfully ignoring the difference between the legislative and judicial branches, and that you don't think that 535 people and all their aids can collectively think about more than 1 simple issue at a time.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Pacific 0]

We should execute all of them...even the pesky drug offenders. We're overpopulated already. Deleting the jackholes is better than feeding them. I'm just fed up with crime, criminals, and the weak people who consider them victims!

So now the homeless can just go murder and confess. They'll get 3 solid meals, shelter, healthcare, TV, exercise, and never be turned away...all courtesy of our tax dollars.

[kallend 2,027]

davjohns

I trust the jury to apply justice to the specific situation more than I trust the legislators to tell the jury what is right in a specific situation. I think I made that clear. I understand that you disagree. You clearly think the US Government is composed of above average thinkers doing a great job.

How about when the jury recommends AGAINST the death penalty but the state executes anyway?

www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/01/a-tale-of-two-executions/282837/?google_editors_picks=true

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Bolas 5]

jclalor

Most people don't care when innocent people are executed, this is because when innocent people are executed, they are still people with serious criminal records.

This. There's a difference between an innocent person and one that is convicted of a particular crime they did not commit.

Some might just call it karma.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[rehmwa 2]

kallend

How about when the jury recommends AGAINST the death penalty but the state executes anyway?

I thought juries only returned a verdict -
and sentencing is not the jury's responsibility

or do they do both in some states?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Bolas

***
Most people don't care when innocent people are executed, this is because when innocent people are executed, they are still people with serious criminal records.

This. There's a difference between an innocent person and one that is convicted of a particular crime they did not commit.

Some might just call it karma.
Wow

[kallend 2,027]

rehmwa

***How about when the jury recommends AGAINST the death penalty but the state executes anyway?

I thought juries only returned a verdict -
and sentencing is not the jury's responsibility

or do they do both in some states?

Yes.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[AndyBoyd 0]

Bolas

***
Most people don't care when innocent people are executed, this is because when innocent people are executed, they are still people with serious criminal records.

This. There's a difference between an innocent person and one that is convicted of a particular crime they did not commit.

Some might just call it karma.
Holy shit! Are you two seriously suggesting that it's OK for the government to execute someone for a crime he did not commit if he has committed some other crimes in the past? I have heard some really stupid stuff on this website, but this takes the cake! Can the two of you really not see how mind-shatteringly dumb your position is? It is never acceptable to execute someone for a crime they did not commit. On your logic, if a guy on death row was exonerated of the crime that put him on death row, but had a criminal background with other crimes, it would still be OK for the government to kill him. That's just nuts.

[jclalor 12]

AndyBoyd

******
Most people don't care when innocent people are executed, this is because when innocent people are executed, they are still people with serious criminal records.

This. There's a difference between an innocent person and one that is convicted of a particular crime they did not commit.

Some might just call it karma.
Holy shit! Are you two seriously suggesting that it's OK for the government to execute someone for a crime he did not commit if he has committed some other crimes in the past? I have heard some really stupid stuff on this website, but this takes the cake! Can the two of you really not see how mind-shatteringly dumb your position is? It is never acceptable to execute someone for a crime they did not commit. On your logic, if a guy on death row was exonerated of the crime that put him on death row, but had a criminal background with other crimes, it would still be OK for the government to kill him. That's just nuts.

I was just stating why most people don't care when an innocent person is executed. Execute an innocent person with no criminal record and maybe someone will notice. I still can't get past why people who think thier goverment is corrupt and also inept at everything they do, then have no problem trusting them executing thier citizens.

[normiss 806]

I'm with you on this.
Innocent people have been executed.
It is the single most important reason the death penalty is wrong.

[wmw999 2,459]

And even executing someone who is guilty of one misdeed, for having done something they didn't do, is just as wrong.

No one is innocent of everything. No one should be executed for something they didn't do.

I too agree that the state shouldn't be in the business of executing people.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[AndyBoyd 0]

jclalor

*********
Most people don't care when innocent people are executed, this is because when innocent people are executed, they are still people with serious criminal records.

This. There's a difference between an innocent person and one that is convicted of a particular crime they did not commit.

Some might just call it karma.
Holy shit! Are you two seriously suggesting that it's OK for the government to execute someone for a crime he did not commit if he has committed some other crimes in the past? I have heard some really stupid stuff on this website, but this takes the cake! Can the two of you really not see how mind-shatteringly dumb your position is? It is never acceptable to execute someone for a crime they did not commit. On your logic, if a guy on death row was exonerated of the crime that put him on death row, but had a criminal background with other crimes, it would still be OK for the government to kill him. That's just nuts.

I was just stating why most people don't care when an innocent person is executed. Execute an innocent person with no criminal record and maybe someone will notice. I still can't get past why people who think thier goverment is corrupt and also inept at everything they do, then have no problem trusting them executing thier citizens.

OK, thanks for clarifying. I don't believe, though, that a majority of the people in the USA would not care if they found out an innocent person was executed. I could be wrong, but I don't think even the most hard-core right-winger is in favor of executing people for crimes they did not commit, just because they have a prior criminal record. I have to believe that people like Bolas are in a very small minority.

[normiss 806]

You have no clue how accurate your last sentence is.

[grue 1]

Does the court ever wrongfully convict? Yes.
Can the dead be revived? No.

Thus, I cannot support the death penalty, because it's supporting murder by the state.

I'm not willing to be the mistaken conviction and die for our shitty system, why should I expect anyone else to?

cavete terrae.

[Bolas 5]

wmw999

And even executing someone who is guilty of one misdeed, for having done something they didn't do, is just as wrong.

No one is innocent of everything. No one should be executed for something they didn't do.

So if a person murdered someone but for one reason or another was not tried and/or convicted of that crime but then was falsely convicted of a murder they did not commit, that's not karmic justice?

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[grue 1]

Bolas

***And even executing someone who is guilty of one misdeed, for having done something they didn't do, is just as wrong.

No one is innocent of everything. No one should be executed for something they didn't do.

So if a person murdered someone but for one reason or another was not tried and/or convicted of that crime but then was falsely convicted of a murder they did not commit, that's not karmic justice?

No, it's a double failure of the system. The second failure is the one I cannot forgive.

cavete terrae.

[kelpdiver 2]

Bolas

So if a person murdered someone but for one reason or another was not tried and/or convicted of that crime but then was falsely convicted of a murder they did not commit, that's not karmic justice?

The starting line here was someone with a serious criminal record, not someone who had murdered another and gotten away with it.

Let's muck it up even further - what if the person he murdered was a total fucking scumbag? Is it still karmic justice, or should we have given him a little medal for the action, rather than execute him for a crime he didn't do?

[Bolas 5]

The whole point is that while there are accidental wrongful convictions, how many of those are truly "innocent"?

Not talking death penalty exclusively, as those are only a miniscule number..

Of course all of this is playing right into the politicians hands as they're diverting our attention from their continued failure to even balance budgets.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[jakee 1,500]

Bolas

***And even executing someone who is guilty of one misdeed, for having done something they didn't do, is just as wrong.

No one is innocent of everything. No one should be executed for something they didn't do.

So if a person murdered someone but for one reason or another was not tried and/or convicted of that crime but then was falsely convicted of a murder they did not commit, that's not karmic justice?

No, that just means that the system has fucked up three times instead of two and there's still a murderer on the loose that no one is looking for.

Fuck up one: Not finding or convicting the right guy in crime one.

Fuck up two: Not finding or convicting the right guy in crime two.

Fuck up three: Convicting and killing the wrong guy in crime two.


"Karmic justice" is not real, and is irrelevant to a real justice system. If you wrongfully convict someone you can't just cross your fingers and hope he did something else equally wrong, 'cos he either didn't get a trial or was found not to have been proven guilty in a trial for that crime.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[normiss 806]

Ah. Kill everybody.

You first?

[kelpdiver 2]

Bolas

The whole point is that while there are accidental wrongful convictions, how many of those are truly "innocent"?

enough to have a hard time defending the death penalty, particularly since we only apply it against heinous murders (though that line has shifted considerably).

Personally, I have no objection to the death penalty as a form of punishment. For some crimes, that is warranted. But I can't get past the fallacy of the system, and in particularly the continuing trend of cops and DAs to make shit up to get a conviction.

[rehmwa 2]

jakee

"Karmic justice" is not real, and is irrelevant to a real justice system. If you wrongfully convict someone you can't just cross your fingers and hope he did something else equally wrong, 'cos he either didn't get a trial or was found not to have been proven guilty in a trial for that crime.

absolutely great statement - Anti-religious types cry "karma" all the time. Frankly, "Karma" is a crappy religion and I don't see how belief in it is any different. Justice needs to be determined based on specific actions of an individual without bias to irrational beliefs, stereotypes, or other actions.

In regards to other actions, they should be judge independently and have their own consequences.

their is no natural balance for subjective things in the universe - just actions and reactions

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants