NC ultrasound law thrown out by judge

[billvon 2,991]

>Do you think the state should be able to force them to comply to what you believe?

Nope.

Should a publicly funded hospital be prohibited from doing blood transfusions, because Jehovah's Witnesses don't want their money being used for a medical procedure they find immoral?

[GeorgiaDon 362]

Quote

As I have stated (and had the guts to do so) this topic is terribly conflicting to me. And it bothers me that let myself off the hook.

So, I have "settled" with myself at this
I do not believe in unrestricted anytime abortion
I also do not believe the state or anyone has unlimited power to totally tell a women is right for them

So, my position is do not use tax dollars to fund abortion (another Obama lie)
And do not use tax dollars to stop it either
And I am disgusted with my own wishy washy stance on this

I'll concede it's a complicated issue. When my daughter got pregnant in high school, we (as a family) never entertained the possibility of abortion, as there was no threat to her health. With a lot of family support my daughter finished high school on time, and later graduated from University. We have a wonderful granddaughter, who we would not trade for the world. But, that was the right course of action for us. I would not feel right at all insisting that that would be right for someone else.

I am also wary of insisting that tax dollars never be used for any purpose that some group of people find objectionable. Jehova's Witnesses' forbid blood transfusions and organ transplants. Scientologists object to psychiatry, and insist that diet and exercise, not antibiotics, is the solution to every disease. If medicare/medicaid could not cover any procedure that someone, somewhere, finds objectionable, then they would cover nothing at all.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[rushmc 23]

billvon

>Do you think the state should be able to force them to comply to what you believe?

Nope.

Should a publicly funded hospital be prohibited from doing blood transfusions, because Jehovah's Witnesses don't want their money being used for a medical procedure they find immoral?

I dont see this transfusion issue being related as such
Although I do see the comparison trying to be made
But no, one group should not have the say over the rest
But abortion and transfusions is very weak link

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[FreefallingCari 0]

rushmc

I feel the unborn have a right to life. I have no idea of what you are trying to say

This is where we differ 100%. I do not believe the unborn have a right to life, or a right to be born. I 100% believe that a woman has the right to dictate birth, which essentially dictates life.. In order for the unborn to live, the woman has to ALLOW it with her body. She has to allow the fetus to carry to term, then she allows birth.

I personally believe that a woman has the right to dictate whether or not she carries to term, and whether or not she gives birth. I believe the woman ultimately has the say on life.

Skydiver Survivor; Battling Breast Cancer one jump at a time. DX June 19th 2014
I have been jumping since October 5th 2013.
https://pinkribbonskydiver.wordpress.com/

[rehmwa 2]

normiss

Just have the balls to admit you're pro-life!
You're clearly not pro-choice.

I prefer to let people do with their own bodies as they please.
AKA pro-choice.
Your choice, not my choice.

OK, I agree with Normiss here. Rush's pissing around with the phrase is just painful and non-constructive.

One can be anti-abortion and pro choice at the same time.
(that means for their own personal choice would be to not abort their own fetus yet pro choice in that they would not interfere legally in another's decision to decide for themselves.)

I do agree that the choice is still whether to end a potential life vs not (though the current status of that being is part of the discussion and just admitting that doesn't derail the debate in any way - there still should be the choice). I guess that makes me even more cold hearted from people on both sides. I think it's killing a being, but I'm not against people making their own decision about it since the being isn't viable on it's own. And that the debate would be easier if people just owned up to that. (pull on that string and see what comes out, very messy indeed) (FFCari really stated this much better just now)

Rush - forget the semantics of the phrase then. Do you think that the government should put laws in place that restrict the availability of abortions for those that would choose to?

Or do you think it's just a matter of who pays for it?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

billvon

>As I have stated (and had the guts to do so) this topic is terribly conflicting to me.

It is definitely not a problem with any easy solutions.

>I do not believe in unrestricted anytime abortion

Agreed, to an extent. For example, I don't have much of a problem with the 24 hour waiting periods present in some states.

>I also do not believe the state or anyone has unlimited power to totally tell a women is
>right for them

Also agreed.

>So, my position is do not use tax dollars to fund abortion (another Obama lie)
>And do not use tax dollars to stop it either

Also agreed.

>I also do not believe in those self righteous bastards who proudly proclaim themselves
>to be pro choice and feel morally superior

Or people who proudly proclaim themselves to be pro-life - until they (or someone they love) has an unintended pregnancy, and they discover that perhaps it's not such a black and white issue.

Sounds like we are pretty similar in our positions.

I'm good with both of these guys in, at least, the content of the above.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

FreefallingCari

***I feel the unborn have a right to life. I have no idea of what you are trying to say

This is where we differ 100%. I do not believe the unborn have a right to life, or a right to be born. I 100% believe that a woman has the right to dictate birth, which essentially dictates life.. In order for the unborn to live, the woman has to ALLOW it with her body. She has to allow the fetus to carry to term, then she allows birth.

I personally believe that a woman has the right to dictate whether or not she carries to term, and whether or not she gives birth. I believe the woman ultimately has the say on life.

Nicely stated. But this then comes with responsibility.

What is your stance on the scenario where the woman "decides" to carry and delivery and keep the child - all decisions 100% hers..... But the father doesn't want it? Would you then require him to support?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[FreefallingCari 0]

I dont know Wendy
You know where I stand and my conflicts as I have taken the time to tell you that I believe in the babies right to live. That abortions should not be used just to get those who practice loose bad behavior off the hook
I also do not think the state has a right to outright ban abortion
I also do not think the state or the fed should fund them

But my purpose was different here in this thread
Abortion, in the context of this thread is NOT about hc

To say that is all it is diminishes life as a whole because the unborn and children are the most protected we have in our society. At least that is what many say it should be

but to argue it is a hc issue takes the supporter off the hook because after all , it is just a medical procedure

Really? that is all it is?

Sorry, I dont feet that is the way this issue should be framed. Those aborted mean more than that
Those that support this have to take account for their position
But they dont want to


WOW, loose, bad behavior?

I am sorry, but you really have a stereotypical view of women whom choose abortion. I am not surprised, because our media perpetuates this.

Women forget their BC pills sometimes, this does not make them loose or nasty, it makes them HUMAN. Most of these women will have their period, and they do not look back... You would never know they had a mishap. The woman walking into the clinic, she had a mishap but she was not so lucky.

Married, wealthy, happy, MOTHERS choose abortion. As a Nurse in an abortion clinic, I worked with countless women that were not loose, or the stereotype you seem to believe exists.

I am married. I never want children, and I had an abortion because I became pregnant. I am not an anomaly, I am not LOOSE or nasty. I f$%^ up my BC pill, yup, I f@#$% up. I am human, I am imperfect. I was not LUCKY, I did not see my period that month like many other women would.

YES, I am glad I got "off the hook". I am glad that my BC muck up did not force me into carrying a pregnancy to term, OR motherhood.

Skydiver Survivor; Battling Breast Cancer one jump at a time. DX June 19th 2014
I have been jumping since October 5th 2013.
https://pinkribbonskydiver.wordpress.com/

[rushmc 23]

FreefallingCari

***I feel the unborn have a right to life. I have no idea of what you are trying to say

This is where we differ 100%. I do not believe the unborn have a right to life, or a right to be born. I 100% believe that a woman has the right to dictate birth, which essentially dictates life.. In order for the unborn to live, the woman has to ALLOW it with her body. She has to allow the fetus to carry to term, then she allows birth.

I personally believe that a woman has the right to dictate whether or not she carries to term, and whether or not she gives birth. I believe the woman ultimately has the say on life.

Then you and I will have to disagree because I value life more than you I guess.
And then personal responsibility comes into play

NOTE:
I know there are situations where abortion is viable choice but, I do NOT feel it should be a choice for chosen behavior.

Don’t want a baby? Don’t behave like you do

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

FreefallingCari

I dont know Wendy
You know where I stand and my conflicts as I have taken the time to tell you that I believe in the babies right to live. That abortions should not be used just to get those who practice loose bad behavior off the hook
I also do not think the state has a right to outright ban abortion
I also do not think the state or the fed should fund them

But my purpose was different here in this thread
Abortion, in the context of this thread is NOT about hc

To say that is all it is diminishes life as a whole because the unborn and children are the most protected we have in our society. At least that is what many say it should be

but to argue it is a hc issue takes the supporter off the hook because after all , it is just a medical procedure

Really? that is all it is?

Sorry, I dont feet that is the way this issue should be framed. Those aborted mean more than that
Those that support this have to take account for their position
But they dont want to


WOW, loose, bad behavior?

I am sorry, but you really have a stereotypical view of women whom choose abortion. I am not surprised, because our media perpetuates this.

Women forget their BC pills sometimes, this does not make them loose or nasty, it makes them HUMAN. Most of these women will have their period, and they do not look back... You would never know they had a mishap. The woman walking into the clinic, she had a mishap but she was not so lucky.

Married, wealthy, happy, MOTHERS choose abortion. As a Nurse in an abortion clinic, I worked with countless women that were not loose, or the stereotype you seem to believe exists.

I am married. I never want children, and I had an abortion because I became pregnant. I am not an anomaly, I am not LOOSE or nasty. I f$%^ up my BC pill, yup, I f@#$% up. I am human, I am imperfect. I was not LUCKY, I did not see my period that month like many other women would.

YES, I am glad I got "off the hook". I am glad that my BC muck up did not force me into carrying a pregnancy to term, OR motherhood.

adoption is also a choice
You made yours
I respect that
I just dont agree with it

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,991]

>I dont see this transfusion issue being related as such

Well, just that neither are healthcare issues, and both are sometimes performed by publicly funded hospitals/medical centers against the wishes of taxpayers. They're definitely not similar at a more detailed level though.

>But no, one group should not have the say over the rest

Agreed - even when the hospital takes public funding.

[FreefallingCari 0]

rehmwa

******I feel the unborn have a right to life. I have no idea of what you are trying to say

This is where we differ 100%. I do not believe the unborn have a right to life, or a right to be born. I 100% believe that a woman has the right to dictate birth, which essentially dictates life.. In order for the unborn to live, the woman has to ALLOW it with her body. She has to allow the fetus to carry to term, then she allows birth.

I personally believe that a woman has the right to dictate whether or not she carries to term, and whether or not she gives birth. I believe the woman ultimately has the say on life.

Nicely stated. But this then comes with responsibility.

What is your stance on the scenario where the woman "decides" to carry and delivery and keep the child - all decisions 100% hers..... But the father doesn't want it? Would you then require him to support?

This is where it becomes tricky. I do not believe that ETHICALLY, a man should be forced to support a baby he never wanted. With this being said, I have NEVER had a condom break, EVER. I have had a lot of protected sex too, with a lot of partners. I only became pregnant with my husband, sans condom, when I did not take my pill correctly.

I believe that "The condom broke" is often a shortened way to say "We forgot, we are embarrassed, so let us say we used one".

Right now, a man must pay up. I am conflicted about this issue.

I can tell you that IF I was a guy, I would wrap it up regardless of what the girl says or does. If one does not really want a baby, wrap it up and pull it out and ejaculate someplace more fun ;)

Again, I have conflicts. I know PLENTY of woman that ooops guys all of the time.

Skydiver Survivor; Battling Breast Cancer one jump at a time. DX June 19th 2014
I have been jumping since October 5th 2013.
https://pinkribbonskydiver.wordpress.com/

[FreefallingCari 0]

Adoption is not a PREGNANCY decision, it is a parenting decision. One chooses to place a BORN child with an adoptive family.

I did not wish to give birth, therefore, adoption would not have been an option.

Adoption is not a viable replacement for abortion, logically speaking. If one simply does not wish to parent, but does not mind remaining pregnant, it is perfectly logical.

Skydiver Survivor; Battling Breast Cancer one jump at a time. DX June 19th 2014
I have been jumping since October 5th 2013.
https://pinkribbonskydiver.wordpress.com/

[billvon 2,991]

>Don’t want a baby? Don’t behave like you do

You mean don't get married, use birth control and have sex with your husband?

[rushmc 23]

FreefallingCari

Adoption is not a PREGNANCY decision, it is a parenting decision. One chooses to place a BORN child with an adoptive family.

I did not wish to give birth, therefore, adoption would not have been an option.

Adoption is not a viable replacement for abortion, logically speaking. If one simply does not wish to parent, but does not mind remaining pregnant, it is perfectly logical.

Again
It is a choice
Your i do not agree with
To callus for me
Life is much much too valuable
To dimisish it devaluse all life IMO

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

billvon

>Don’t want a baby? Don’t behave like you do

You mean don't get married, use birth control and have sex with your husband?

Yes
It happens
I think one has the responcibility to live with it
but, remember we are taling opinions here
Not forcing anyone to comply

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[FreefallingCari 0]

rushmc

******I feel the unborn have a right to life. I have no idea of what you are trying to say

This is where we differ 100%. I do not believe the unborn have a right to life, or a right to be born. I 100% believe that a woman has the right to dictate birth, which essentially dictates life.. In order for the unborn to live, the woman has to ALLOW it with her body. She has to allow the fetus to carry to term, then she allows birth.

I personally believe that a woman has the right to dictate whether or not she carries to term, and whether or not she gives birth. I believe the woman ultimately has the say on life.

Then you and I will have to disagree because I value life more than you I guess.
And then personal responsibility comes into play

NOTE:
I know there are situations where abortion is viable choice but, I do NOT feel it should be a choice for chosen behavior.

Don’t want a baby? Don’t behave like you do

Sex is fun, enjoyable, and I certainly do not believe that wanting to get laid is acting as if I want a baby.

Wanting to enjoy another human's body sexually does not equal wanting a baby.

Skydiver Survivor; Battling Breast Cancer one jump at a time. DX June 19th 2014
I have been jumping since October 5th 2013.
https://pinkribbonskydiver.wordpress.com/

[rushmc 23]

FreefallingCari

*********I feel the unborn have a right to life. I have no idea of what you are trying to say

This is where we differ 100%. I do not believe the unborn have a right to life, or a right to be born. I 100% believe that a woman has the right to dictate birth, which essentially dictates life.. In order for the unborn to live, the woman has to ALLOW it with her body. She has to allow the fetus to carry to term, then she allows birth.

I personally believe that a woman has the right to dictate whether or not she carries to term, and whether or not she gives birth. I believe the woman ultimately has the say on life.

Then you and I will have to disagree because I value life more than you I guess.
And then personal responsibility comes into play

NOTE:
I know there are situations where abortion is viable choice but, I do NOT feel it should be a choice for chosen behavior.

Don’t want a baby? Don’t behave like you do

Sex is fun, enjoyable, and I certainly do not believe that wanting to get laid is acting as if I want a baby.

Wanting to enjoy another human's body sexually does not equal wanting a baby.

Agreed
but it is a consequense of that choice and behaivor
There are choices to be make should a pregnancy happen
Personaly, an abortion would be last on the list

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

FreefallingCari

*********I feel the unborn have a right to life. I have no idea of what you are trying to say

This is where we differ 100%. I do not believe the unborn have a right to life, or a right to be born. I 100% believe that a woman has the right to dictate birth, which essentially dictates life.. In order for the unborn to live, the woman has to ALLOW it with her body. She has to allow the fetus to carry to term, then she allows birth.

I personally believe that a woman has the right to dictate whether or not she carries to term, and whether or not she gives birth. I believe the woman ultimately has the say on life.

Nicely stated. But this then comes with responsibility.

What is your stance on the scenario where the woman "decides" to carry and delivery and keep the child - all decisions 100% hers..... But the father doesn't want it? Would you then require him to support?

This is where it becomes tricky. I do not believe that ETHICALLY, a man should be forced to support a baby he never wanted. With this being said, I have NEVER had a condom break, EVER. I have had a lot of protected sex too, with a lot of partners. I only became pregnant with my husband, sans condom, when I did not take my pill correctly.

I believe that "The condom broke" is often a shortened way to say "We forgot, we are embarrassed, so let us say we used one".

Right now, a man must pay up. I am conflicted about this issue.

I can tell you that IF I was a guy, I would wrap it up regardless of what the girl says or does. If one does not really want a baby, wrap it up and pull it out and ejaculate someplace more fun ;)

Again, I have conflicts. I know PLENTY of woman that ooops guys all of the time.

this post is interesting in the context of a news story out of Kansas today

A man was asked to donate sperm to a lesbian couple
He did, she had a bady for an artificial insemenation from his sperm
And yesterday he was ordered to pay child support and back expenses to the state because they did not have a dr involved

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,991]

>>>Don’t want a baby? Don’t behave like you do

>>You mean don't get married, use birth control and have sex with your husband?

>Yes

OK. So getting married, using birth control and having sex with your husband is irresponsible behavior in your book.

[FreefallingCari 0]

I will say that FIRST on my list is to use a condom, because I consider it mandatory of any partner I am not married to...

CONTRAception is first on my list.

Skydiver Survivor; Battling Breast Cancer one jump at a time. DX June 19th 2014
I have been jumping since October 5th 2013.
https://pinkribbonskydiver.wordpress.com/

[rushmc 23]

billvon

>>>Don’t want a baby? Don’t behave like you do

>>You mean don't get married, use birth control and have sex with your husband?

>Yes

OK. So getting married, using birth control and having sex with your husband is irresponsible behavior in your book.

Nope
didnt say that

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

FreefallingCari

I will say that FIRST on my list is to use a condom, because I consider it mandatory of any partner I am not married to...

CONTRAception is first on my list.

As a male, if I did not ever want a child, I would get clipped

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[FreefallingCari 0]

That is absurd to me. The state, if they paid any welfare benefits, should go after the WOMEN.

Skydiver Survivor; Battling Breast Cancer one jump at a time. DX June 19th 2014
I have been jumping since October 5th 2013.
https://pinkribbonskydiver.wordpress.com/

[FreefallingCari 0]

Not all men want to get clipped. They feel it changes their manhood, or what have you..

I actually had an IUD inserted into my uterus to ensure pregnancy would not be an issue, however, I understand many women's reluctance to do so.

Skydiver Survivor; Battling Breast Cancer one jump at a time. DX June 19th 2014
I have been jumping since October 5th 2013.
https://pinkribbonskydiver.wordpress.com/