To vaccinate or not to vaccinate?

[billvon 3,074]

>Many would do anything to go down in history as the person who ended disease X.

And I think many companies want that too. "Pfizer - we cured cancer" is very hard to beat as a slogan. From a marketing perspective, game over.

[Calvin19 0]

jakee

Quote

man, you and everyone else here have accepted that these industries have your best interests at heart, not profits. and if you should have to use more of their products, then that means more profits. oh, yes, the government has nothing but your best interests in mind when they hand over the keys to the kingdom to corporations.

Is there a Godwin variation that applies whenever someone tries to win an argument by mentioning corporations

There should be.
The broad use of "Reductio ad Hitlerum" commonly called Godwin's law does not necessarily have to reference Hitler, only something universally or figuratively vilified.

-SPACE-

[ibx 2]

http://chicagopolicyreview.org/2014/01/22/the-deadly-vaccine-loophole-religious-exemptions-and-the-rise-of-pertussis-in-new-york/

[wmw999 2,544]

We need to get the kind of publicity about the diseases that we currently get about Cyley Mirus's twerking. Then there won't be any questions, will there?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[normiss 855]

Religion and death.
Tried and true time and time again.

[sfzombie13 324]

oik, not directed toward anyone in particular: since i heard no statements trying to refute the fact that these corporations are run for profit, not medicine, i guess i'll put the video camera down. and not one time did i try to say the life expectancy was long, just that we do not need vaccines to live. you guys are too busy banging drums and shouting from soapboxes (metaphorically) to actually think about anything other than your preconceived notions on this, so i'm done. i can accept that i am trying to debate (honestly, not just arguing for fun) with staunch proponents of vaccinations. i did really expect more from this, although, looking at some of the replies, i am not sure why. have fun all, and i seriously hope you don't accept all things you are told by figures of authority as easily as you accept this. must just be the right authority.

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[Andy9o8 2]

Quote

i heard no statements trying to refute the fact that these corporations are run for profit, not medicine,

There are multiple answers in this thread that either directly or impliedly refute your proposition that the two should be presumed to be mutually exclusive. You're just ignoring or summarily dismissing them.

Anyhow, I'll add to them. People here know my posting history; you know I'm no fan of corporate greedsters (in any industry) and their politician lackeys. But I've deal a lot with the inner workings of pharma companies in my career, so I've got some informed perspective. First, the FDA, NIH and SEC all do a surprisingly efficient, aggressive and proactive job about subjecting pharma companies, their research & development (such as clinical trials) their manufacturing and quality control processes, and the efficacy (or lack thereof) of the products in their pipelines to close and strict scrutiny and regulation. This is the case not only in the US, but re: the corresponding agencies in other countries, as well.

Second, directly to your rhetorical point, Pharma corporations are run for BOTH profit AND medicine. It's a fallacious premise to presume that they're mutually exclusive. Good medicine (effective products) make for good medicine and generate good profits. And bad products (or too much R&D invested into products that fail clinical trials) translate to bad medicine, which translates to loss rather than profit.

The poster up-thread is right though: the horse has been thoroughly flogged.

[kallend 2,106]

sfzombie13

i'm not an idiot

You sure fooled me.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[GeorgiaDon 379]

Are dropzones not run for profit? Does that mean the DZO doesn't care about safety?

Your position that profit and medicine are antagonistic by nature is absurd. Businesses are not charities. If they do not make a profit, then who will pay for the research, development, and production of drugs and vaccines? If you think that some white knight with bottomlessly deep pockets will pony up the costs without expectation of reimbursement, you are living in la-la land.

Drug companies cannot sell anything without registration from the FDA. This is necessary to ensure some independent evaluation of safety and efficacy. The process was developed in response to past experiences, when (in the absence of regulatory oversight) people were sometimes harmed, or at least deceived, when they bought untested remedies. The standard of proof of safety and efficacy that the FDA requires is very expensive. Satisfying the regulatory burden for a new drug costs in excess of $500 million, and a decade or more, to conduct cell culture assays, animal trials, small scale human clinical trials, and finally large scale clinical trials. Costs to bring a new vaccine to market approach $1 billion (with a "b") dollars.

Of course "safe" does not mean "never has any adverse reactions in anybody, ever". People are highly complex, biologically, and vary in their genetics, state of health, and disease history. No clinical trial is likely to uncover side effects that occur in 1 in a million patients. More frequent side effects are noted on the label, and ideally your doctor will discuss these with you when she prescribes the drug.

If your expectation is that drug companies will just eat $500,000,000 to $1,000,000,000 in development costs to provide you with drugs and vaccines, you are not living in the real world. If your perspective is that a drug or vaccine should not be sold if it produces a side effect in one person, even if it cures or prevents disease in a million others, then you should not be using any modern technology (such as airplanes to skydive) as everything carries some level of risk.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[billvon 3,074]

>since i heard no statements trying to refute the fact that these corporations are run for profit, not medicine

That's like saying that drop zones are run for profit, not skydiving. They are run for skydiving in order to make a profit, just as pharmas are run for medicine to make a profit.

"Wanting to make a profit" does not make someone good or evil. It's just how our system works.

> just that we do not need vaccines to live.

We quite literally do. Without them many of us would die.

[billvon 3,074]

>We need to get the kind of publicity about the diseases that we currently get about
>Cyley Mirus's twerking.

We would if we didn't have vaccines, ironically. If the Royal Baby or Kim Kardashian's child was dying of typhoid you'd read about it 24/7. But vaccines are a victim of their own success - since they have almost ended the diseases they protect against, there's no news stories about the diseases they fight. "Kim's love child does not contract polio and will likely live into her 70's!" is a non-story.

[Calvin19 0]

sfzombie13

you guys are too busy .... to actually think about anything other than your preconceived notions on this

A "preconceived notion" is an opinion formed beforehand without adequate evidence.
As stated and verified extensively throughout this thread, The position that you are arguing against is the result of centuries of science and progression.

"""""It is not what the man of science believes that distinguishes him, but how and why he believes it. His beliefs are tentative, not dogmatic; they are based on evidence, not on authority or intuition.""""""
-Bertrand Russell

-SPACE-

[turtlespeed 226]

normiss

Religion and death.
Tried and true time and time again.

How do you vaccinate against those?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[quade 4]

turtlespeed

***Religion and death.
Tried and true time and time again.

How do you vaccinate against those?

It's possible to innoculate against the worst effects of religion by getting an actual education.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[turtlespeed 226]

quade

******Religion and death.
Tried and true time and time again.

How do you vaccinate against those?

It's possible to innoculate against the worst effects of religion by getting an actual education.

In Theology.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[quade 4]

turtlespeed

*********Religion and death.
Tried and true time and time again.

How do you vaccinate against those?
It's possible to innoculate against the worst effects of religion by getting an actual education.
In Theology.
Theology is a sub-set of mythology. If a person gets a better education, they can generally see most religions are based in a previous religion. Once you see the "special" story of a religion told by another, more primitive people, you usually see it's not so special after all and then has to come to the conclusion a lot of the religion's underpinnings are stolen nonsense.

That's not to say all of the religion is nonsense, but it's pretty easy to see the mythological aspects for what they are.

So, yes, be nice . . . just don't believe it's turtles all the way down.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Calvin19 0]

"What anti-vacc and creationists have in common" LA Times

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-antivaccination-and-antievolution-believers-make-common-cause-20140123,0,6948631.story#axzz2rhryOwQF

[Skyrad 0]

Earlier in this thread I gave you my opinion as both a Father and a clinician. They say a picture says a thousand words so how much more so a film. This is very short and puts it in very simple terms.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhk7-5eBCrs

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[cryptocoin 0]

Quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhk7-5eBCrs

That is about as scientific as an episode of myth busters.

I find it peculiar that my questioning certain vaccines has been translated into, 'I am not going to vaccinate'. This is BS

I want what is best for my children and listening to the medical industry is often not the best thing for anybody.

If it were then doctors would know about nutrition and we wouldn't be given pills and medications for everything, only when we need it.

I (we) have decided to study further and talk with other parents that have been through the same decision process.

I believe the current schedule is not a healthy one at all and some of the side effects are probably not from the vaccines themselves but the combinations of them...

I think we will end up using some vaccines and not others and space them out a little more.

Determining this will take some considerable time to study.

We have a lot of time to do this.

All in all I thank everyone that has contributed to the conversation on both sides of the spectrum.

[Skyrad 0]

Fair enough your call, but be careful who you do listen too theres a lot of bogus nonsense out there. If its science you're after then read this before you make your mind up.

http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5347

Good luck.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[billvon 3,074]

>If it were then doctors would know about nutrition and we wouldn't be given pills
>and medications for everything, only when we need it.

They do know about nutrition. People are generally given pills and medications for everything because they demand them for everything.

My wife worked in an urgent care clinic for a few years. The number of mothers demanding antibiotics to treat their kid's virus was remarkable.

[cryptocoin 0]

Quote

They do know about nutrition. People are generally given pills and medications for everything because they demand them for everything.

Rubbish! I agree that people may demand pills but doctors are not taught enough about nutrition and they seldom use nutrition in their treatments.

There are of course exceptions to the rule but generally this is the case.

Quote

Results:

A total of 106 surveys were returned for a response rate of 84%. Ninety-nine of the 106 schools responding required some form of nutrition education; however, only 32 schools (30%) required a separate nutrition course. On average, students received 23.9 contact hours of nutrition instruction during medical school (range: 2–70 h). Only 40 schools required the minimum 25 h recommended by the National Academy of Sciences. Most instructors (88%) expressed the need for additional nutrition instruction at their institutions.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2430660/

[jclalor 12]

cryptocoin

Quote

They do know about nutrition. People are generally given pills and medications for everything because they demand them for everything.

Rubbish! I agree that people may demand pills but doctors are not taught enough about nutrition and they seldom use nutrition in their treatments.

There are of course exceptions to the rule but generally this is the case.

Quote

Results:

A total of 106 surveys were returned for a response rate of 84%. Ninety-nine of the 106 schools responding required some form of nutrition education; however, only 32 schools (30%) required a separate nutrition course. On average, students received 23.9 contact hours of nutrition instruction during medical school (range: 2–70 h). Only 40 schools required the minimum 25 h recommended by the National Academy of Sciences. Most instructors (88%) expressed the need for additional nutrition instruction at their institutions.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2430660/

I have friend at work who is very anti-vaccine, he is now on this thing about how MD's are taught nothing about nutrition. He gets all of his cutting edge information via Alex Jones, I really hope that's also not you also, if so, what a total waste of time for everybody here. Moonies are more easily persuaded than Alex Jones listeners.

[kelpdiver 2]

cryptocoin

I find it peculiar that my questioning certain vaccines has been translated into, 'I am not going to vaccinate'.

[followed by lots of statements that confirm this assessment, and finally by]

I think we will end up using some vaccines and not others and space them out a little more.

You've decided not to vaccinate. (Well, you decided that before the conversation even started.) Now it's just a question of how many diseases you will put your children (and society) at risk for.

Not sure why you raise nutrition as a topic. These sort of infectious diseases are not prevented by good nutrition.

[billvon 3,074]

>Rubbish! I agree that people may demand pills but doctors are not taught enough
>about nutrition and they seldom use nutrition in their treatments.

?? My father just went through open heart surgery. He spent hours with a nutritionist, per doctor's orders. This is not the exception there (New York hospital) it's standard.

>On average, students received 23.9 contact hours of nutrition instruction during
>medical school (range: 2–70 h).

So they get far more formal education than skydiving instructors do in, say, teaching methods.