Arizona tries to legalize discrimination

[quade 4]

Lefty

******Judging by the response the AZ and KS bills have received from the American people, I can see I'm not alone.

Also not alone; members of the KKK.

Just because you belong to a group, doesn't mean that group is right.

Indeed. But I'll just keep on erring on the side against bigotry and hope for the best.

But you're not. I realize you may believe you're on the side against bigotry, but you simply are not.

This law is toxic. It puts the right of a "company" over the rights of individuals based on "religious" beliefs.

That is fucked up. Where does it end? Sharia law?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Lefty 0]

quade

But you're not. I realize you may believe you're on the side against bigotry, but you simply are not.

This law is toxic. It puts the right of a "company" over the rights of individuals based on "religious" beliefs.

I know the law is toxic. I'm against this law because it doesn't include EVERYONE. It singles out one group for discrimination and that's wrong.

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[champu 1]

Andy9o8

******People tend to abuse power; when there's a power differential, then I kind of think that the gummint does have to make sure that the power isn't abused in such a way as to enforce that status quo. Because if it is enforced, then there really isn't a way for people to rise.

But these business owners have no power.

Of course they do. They have the economic and political power to monopolize certain essential services, and effectively deny or restrict such essential services to entire segments of society based on nothing more than ethnicity. Recognition of that core reality was the policy underpinning the US's Civil Rights Act in the 1960s (and related federal court decisions of the same time period) which prohibited businesses such as restaurants, hotels, bus companies, etc. from discriminating against ethnic classes of potential customers. That was just the first generation of such laws. Laws prohibiting discrimination against homosexuals are the next generation of laws, but they have the same policy foundation.

Sorry, but in the US, the argument "I can refuse service to whomever I want" was consumed on the funeral pyres of the law almost 50 years ago.

I think I follow where Lefty is coming from and I think the problem exists somewhere between turning tides and ruling with iron fists. On one end of the spectrum you have classes of people who are unable to participate in whole segments of the economy because of wide-spread discrimination against them, on the other you have a homophobe who tries to open a "no-fags" restaurant in The Castro. I think there exists a threshold where it becomes better to just let people like that go down in flames without government intervention.

My argument against Lefty would simply be, "Meh, we're probably not there yet on homosexuality in a lot of places."

[quade 4]

champu

I think I follow where Lefty is coming from and I think the problem exists somewhere between turning tides and ruling with iron fists. On one end of the spectrum you have classes of people who are unable to participate in whole segments of the economy because of wide-spread discrimination against them, on the other you have a homophobe who tries to open a "no-fags" restaurant in The Castro. I think there exists a threshold where it becomes better to just let people like that go down in flames without government intervention.

My argument against Lefty would simply be, "Meh, we're probably not there yet on homosexuality in a lot of places."

My problem with Lefty's argument is he seems to not to want to have any class of people protected against discrimination. While that's great in an ideal world, we do not live in an ideal world. It also opens the door for not just customer discrimination, but also employee discrimination and again it seems that in Lefty's world there should be no protected classes there either.

Okay, so what is the logical conclusion to this?

If a fireman shows up to a house owned by a class of people he personally doesn't like based on his "religious" beliefs, is it okay for him to not put out the fire?

Lefty's path leads to madness.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jakee 1,500]

Lefty

***Are you OK with businesses refusing to serve Christians, or Jews, or heterosexuals, or interacial couples, for instance?

I don't mind answering. Yes.

I'd like to hear it from catfishhunter.

If he walks into a restaurant with a copy of his church newsletter in hand and the owner says "Get out of my joint and take your perverted beliefs and vile morals with you" is he really going to say "Yes of course, I'm so sorry to have offended you!"?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[catfishhunter 2]

jakee

******Are you OK with businesses refusing to serve Christians, or Jews, or heterosexuals, or interacial couples, for instance?

I don't mind answering. Yes.

I'd like to hear it from catfishhunter.

If he walks into a restaurant with a copy of his church newsletter in hand and the owner says "Get out of my joint and take your perverted beliefs and vile morals with you" is he really going to say "Yes of course, I'm so sorry to have offended you!"?I have no desire to go where I'm not wanted and I'm not going to go file a lawsuit with the Intent of destroying someone's lovely hood. Which is what the militant gay agenda is. Destruction of everything and everyone that does not agree with them. Funny how you call morals vile. Even funnier is I'm least bigoted of all you. You wish to force others to accept sin yet you do not accept all sin. So if one sexual perversion is ok why isn't all sexual perversion ok?

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[wmw999 2,452]

Why is this particular sin so vile, when others, like divorce (which is far more specifically condemned in Luke 16:18), are OK to live with?

The existence of divorced people, adulterers, and/or gay people does not impact how you live your life, does it? Does being in the presence of a known adulterer taint you?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Lefty 0]

quade

My problem with Lefty's argument is he seems to not to want to have any class of people protected against discrimination. While that's great in an ideal world, we do not live in an ideal world. It also opens the door for not just customer discrimination, but also employee discrimination and again it seems that in Lefty's world there should be no protected classes there either.

Okay, so what is the logical conclusion to this?

If a fireman shows up to a house owned by a class of people he personally doesn't like based on his "religious" beliefs, is it okay for him to not put out the fire?

Lefty's path leads to madness.

"Madness" might be overstating things a bit, but you make a valid point. However, in this day and age, I don't see a business owner's personal bigotry, if it exists in the first place, overriding his need to make money. With all the posts on this very forum deriding or celebrating the "greed" of capitalism, I'm surprised anyone is left who thinks greed will take a break when it comes to serving gays or any other given group, as a rule. There are instances, of course, like that cake shop a while back that wouldn't make a cake for a same-sex wedding. But look at the public response to their nonsense. That cake shop has since closed down, if memory serves.

And from personal experience: Back in high school I worked for a business that I later found out was owned by a white supremacist. I guess they're into Norse mythology which, looking back, explained a lot of the tattoos he had.

Anyway, I never saw him be anything but courteous and accommodating to every customer that came in, regardless of skin color or religion (which was often mentioned due to the nature of the business). Why? Because the need to make money took priority over the need to air his personal bigotry to the customers. The law did nothing to curtail his disgusting beliefs. The law didn't require him to go beyond grudgingly serving all perceived threats to the white race or whatever. The law didn't say he needed to leave the customers happy so they'd come back. Economics and greed did.

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[Andy9o8 2]

Wendy said taint.

[shropshire 0]

WTF is sinful about being gay...

Why do you think they are perverts?

WFT is your problem, they are not hurting ANYONE.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[shropshire 0]

Lefty

***But you're not. I realize you may believe you're on the side against bigotry, but you simply are not.

This law is toxic. It puts the right of a "company" over the rights of individuals based on "religious" beliefs.

I know the law is toxic. I'm against this law because it doesn't include EVERYONE. It singles out one group for discrimination and that's wrong.

The law is toxic because IT EXISTS.

What kind of fucking idiot writes or agrees a law that is defined by a fucking MYTH?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[catfishhunter 2]

shropshire

WTF is sinful about being gay...

Why do you think they are perverts?

WFT is your problem, they are not hurting ANYONE.

since the dawn of time man laying with man has been a sin. Those wishing to not condone not service those choosing to live in win should not be forced to. This is what I believe. I have not spoken out against gays but have spoken for the right to refuse service. Sexual perversion is not and should not be a protective class unless you are going to protect all perversions and there is the slippery slope. You cannot discriminate against some and accept others.

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[quade 4]

catfishhunter

since the dawn of time man laying with man has been a sin.

Oh my, you simply could not be more wrong. Ever.

While homosexuality has been repressed by certain cultures/religions, there are a number of cultures around the world where it was perfectly acceptable "since the dawn of time."

One of several bajillion articles on the subject;
http://www.mygenes.co.nz/PDFs/Ch6.pdf

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jakee 1,500]

Quote

Even funnier is I'm least bigoted of all you.

Yeah... that would be a great point if it wasn't self deluded nonsense.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[shropshire 0]

wow .. just wow

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Amazon 7]

catfishhunter

***WTF is sinful about being gay...

Why do you think they are perverts?

WFT is your problem, they are not hurting ANYONE.

since the dawn of time man laying with man has been a sin. Those wishing to not condone not service those choosing to live in win should not be forced to. This is what I believe. I have not spoken out against gays but have spoken for the right to refuse service. Sexual perversion is not and should not be a protective class unless you are going to protect all perversions and there is the slippery slope. You cannot discriminate against some and accept others.

How did Charlie Sheen get into this discussion

[catfishhunter 2]

LOL fat fingers on the iPhone and not proof reading:)

But for the real bigots here. You are good with destroying everyone and everything that doesn't conform to your beliefs. Your the bigots. I could care less who your sleeping with but when you trample on others rights claiming equality when what your after is special treatment I got to call bullshit. If you believed sexual preferences is a protected class the. ALL sexual preferences must be protected. If it is a choice then none of it is protected.

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[Amazon 7]

catfishhunter

LOL fat fingers on the iPhone and not proof reading:)

But for the real bigots here. You are good with destroying everyone and everything that doesn't conform to your beliefs. Your the bigots. I could care less who your sleeping with but when you trample on others rights claiming equality when what your after is special treatment I got to call bullshit. If you believed sexual preferences is a protected class the. ALL sexual preferences must be protected. If it is a choice then none of it is protected.

OK you can have all 7 wives... ready to relent yet???

[winsor 236]

Amazon

***LOL fat fingers on the iPhone and not proof reading:)

But for the real bigots here. You are good with destroying everyone and everything that doesn't conform to your beliefs. Your the bigots. I could care less who your sleeping with but when you trample on others rights claiming equality when what your after is special treatment I got to call bullshit. If you believed sexual preferences is a protected class the. ALL sexual preferences must be protected. If it is a choice then none of it is protected.

OK you can have all 7 wives... ready to relent yet???

All at the same time, or do I have to buy 7 hoses?

[kallend 2,027]

catfishhunter

I could care less who your sleeping with but when you trample on others rights claiming equality when what your after is special treatment I got to call bullshit..

Irony score 100%

With every post you show yourself for what you are.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Amazon 7]

winsor

******LOL fat fingers on the iPhone and not proof reading:)

But for the real bigots here. You are good with destroying everyone and everything that doesn't conform to your beliefs. Your the bigots. I could care less who your sleeping with but when you trample on others rights claiming equality when what your after is special treatment I got to call bullshit. If you believed sexual preferences is a protected class the. ALL sexual preferences must be protected. If it is a choice then none of it is protected.

OK you can have all 7 wives... ready to relent yet???

All at the same time, or do I have to buy 7 hoses?

I hear its biblical... http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QikkVCasr7U/TtmzyTVLoAI/AAAAAAAAFsg/pE-MGI0VWA8/s1600/biblical_marriage_chart.jpg

Its bad form to pick and choose... Yahweh does not like that.

[shropshire 0]

You can hold you own beliefs .. I have no problem with that ... but to enshrine them in Law - wow that's ridiculous.

How would you feel if laws were passed based upon someone else religious mythology?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Amazon 7]

shropshire

You can hold you own beliefs .. I have no problem with that ... but to enshrine them in Law - wow that's ridiculous.

How would you feel if laws were passed based upon someone else religious mythology?

I am betting those who are not accepting of others are not going to be allowed on the spaceship.

[shropshire 0]

Amazon

***You can hold you own beliefs .. I have no problem with that ... but to enshrine them in Law - wow that's ridiculous.

How would you feel if laws were passed based upon someone else religious mythology?

I am betting those who are not accepting of others are not going to be allowed on the spaceship.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[jakee 1,500]

Quote

I could care less who your sleeping with but when you trample on others rights claiming equality when what your after is special treatment I got to call bullshit

What special treatment?

Quote

If you believed sexual preferences is a protected class then ALL sexual preferences must be protected.

Heterosexuality is protected. I believe that you're either married or have been. You must also be in favour of marriage between men and animals, and OAPs and infants, then?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?