The Hobby Lobby case

[kallend 2,027]

Goes to the Supremes on Tuesday.

The Hobby Lobby case requires the court to decide whether a corporation has sincere religious beliefs that would be compromised by having its health plan cover the contraception that it once covered because it believes that contraception causes abortions, even when the science says clearly that it doesn't.

Do corporations have religious beliefs?

Is ignorance a bona fide religious belief?

Funny how this corporate religious belief suddenly materialized when the ACA came along. Did God have a change of heart in 2010?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[quade 4]

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Did God have a change of heart in 2010?

"God" was once almost irrelevant in these terms. Then the Reagan election team (like some other "leaders" throughout history) figured out they could leverage religion to promote their political agenda. They tied the two together as closely as possible and opened the doors for what we see today.

So, no, it wasn't 2010. It was 1979 or thereabouts. This is relatively easy to confirm by listening to major speeches before and after and looking at historical media. It has also been written about fairly extensively.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[lawrocket 3]

Hmmm. Religion was not used in US politics before Reagan did it. That's a new one.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[normiss 803]

Thomas Jefferson would say otherwise.

[BIGUN 1,319]

Several major corporations have espoused their religious beliefs as part of their corporate values long before 2010.

In the end, I think they will be forced to accept the ACA in its entirety.
In the end, I know that if forced to abandon their value system; they will close their doors.

Just because you don't believe in God; does not make everyone else ignorant.
They believe in your right - not to believe.
You could extend the same courtesy and make your points without throwing rocks.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[normiss 803]

Most people do.

Until they tell us we can't have a medical prescription based on their beliefs.

I'm not preventing them from accessing anything.

[swisschris62 0]

normiss

Until they tell us we can't have a medical prescription based on their beliefs.
.

There are other groups that have that covered....

[BIGUN 1,319]

normiss

Most people do. You lost me.

Until they tell us we can't have a medical prescription based on their beliefs. Their employees hold the same belief system, so why make it mandatory? There's no reason everyone can't go to Planned Parenthood, why even make it part of the medical plan? In most cases PP is cheaper and more effective. Hell, just make PP a governmental agency.

I'm not preventing them from accessing anything. Again, you've lost me.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[wmw999 2,452]

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Their employees hold the same belief system, so why make it mandatory?

While I suppose the vast majority do, it would be quite illegal for them to require that their employees be evangelical Christians (or Christians at all). Just as it would be illegal for them to proselytize their non-Christian employees, or make it uncomfortable for them.

They're a public for-profit corporation. They can certainly run it according to their beliefs (like their strict adherence to a Sunday closing and for major Christian holidays -- those are well within the realm of company policy), but they can't go outside the law.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[quade 4]

lawrocket

Hmmm. Religion was not used in US politics before Reagan did it. That's a new one.

I didn't say that.

It was on the decline though and Reagan's team revived it which has lead us to the current state of affairs. Notably, look at the period between 1958 and 1980. Kennedy specifically said his religion wouldn't be a part of how his Administration would be run. He essentially denounced its influence. From that point until Reagan, religion is barely mentioned except for maybe once or twice a year for ceremonial purposes. After Reagan, it's mentioned quite frequently. By the time Bush 43 is in office, Biblical passages are quoted on the covers of military briefings. That's a pretty big change.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Remster 30]

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Kennedy specifically said his religion wouldn't be a part of how his Administration would be run

That's because he was a scary catholic in a land of protestants.

Remster

[quade 4]

Remster

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Kennedy specifically said his religion wouldn't be a part of how his Administration would be run

That's because he was a scary catholic in a land of protestants.

Be that as it may, back then people were concerned about religion influencing Presidential decisions. Now, there is a faction of America which fully expects and looks forward to it... As long as it's "Christian."

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

quade

***

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Kennedy specifically said his religion wouldn't be a part of how his Administration would be run

That's because he was a scary catholic in a land of protestants.

Be that as it may, back then people were concerned about religion influencing Presidential decisions. Now, there is a faction of America which fully expects and looks forward to it... As long as it's "Christian."

Well, back then they were more worried about the Pope influencing the President than religion (in general) affecting decisions. Since all Catholics are supposed to obey the Pope, people were afraid that Kennedy would be obligated to follow whatever the Pope told him to do.

Back then we had prayers in school, abortion was prohibited, pornography was prohibited, "Sunday Laws" were very common and on and on.

Religion (in general, and almost exclusively Christian of some type) was very influential.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[billvon 2,998]

>Do corporations have religious beliefs?

They can; they can have any beliefs they want.

>Is ignorance a bona fide religious belief?

How does this stand they take equate to ignorance? Disagreeing with someone is not ignorance.

I think corporations can have any religious beliefs they like. But when those religious beliefs go contrary to public interest and the rights of employees, they generally cannot impose those beliefs on them, or use their employment policies to guarantee adherence to them. (Refusing to hire blacks, refusing to cover vaccinations or refusing to allow women maternity leave are just some examples.)

[BIGUN 1,319]

wmw999

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Their employees hold the same belief system, so why make it mandatory?

While I suppose the vast majority do, it would be quite illegal for them to require that their employees be evangelical Christians (or Christians at all). Just as it would be illegal for them to proselytize their non-Christian employees, or make it uncomfortable for them.

They're a public for-profit corporation. They can certainly run it according to their beliefs (like their strict adherence to a Sunday closing and for major Christian holidays -- those are well within the realm of company policy), but they can't go outside the law.

Wendy P.

They are within the law.
They do not require employees be of Christian faith.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[Bolas 5]

kallend

Goes to the Supremes on Tuesday.

The Hobby Lobby case requires the court to decide whether a corporation has sincere religious beliefs that would be compromised by having its health plan cover the contraception that it once covered because it believes that contraception causes abortions, even when the science says clearly that it doesn't.

Do corporations have religious beliefs?

Is ignorance a bona fide religious belief?

Funny how this corporate religious belief suddenly materialized when the ACA came along. Did God have a change of heart in 2010?

Doubt it is as simple as that. Likely the reason their previous pre-ACA plan covered contraception was not by their choosing. They may have previously tried to get them excluded then too.

This is an important case as it sets the line for religion and business thst was created by ACA.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[kelpdiver 2]

billvon

>Is ignorance a bona fide religious belief?

How does this stand they take equate to ignorance? Disagreeing with someone is not ignorance.

He referred specifically to "because it believes that contraception causes abortions, even when the science says clearly that it doesn't" as an example of ignorance.

With the exception of Plan B, contraceptives prevent conception (duh), they do not cause abortions.

[quade 4]

wolfriverjoe

Religion (in general, and almost exclusively Christian of some type) was very influential.

Influential in the public sphere, but not governmental. There has been a profound uptick in that with regards to the selection of politicians.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[wmw999 2,452]

Not specifically governmental, but that's mainly because it was a fairly safe assumption 50 years ago that a government employee was Christian, and if they had any power, they were probably a white male as well.

So plenty of baseline assumptions about similar worldviews, including religion, were fairly safe.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[quade 4]

wmw999

Not specifically governmental, but that's mainly because it was a fairly safe assumption 50 years ago that a government employee was Christian, and if they had any power, they were probably a white male as well.

So plenty of baseline assumptions about similar worldviews, including religion, were fairly safe.

Wendy P.

If you had visited say, the USAF Academy in the late 70s vs today, you'd be shocked by the religious overtones it now has. Just as an example. The same could probably be said for any one of a number of pieces of our government today.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[wmw999 2,452]

They're marking their territory. Before women were admitted to the Academy, they didn't have to pee on the floor, either

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kallend 2,027]

BIGUN

Several major corporations have espoused their religious beliefs as part of their corporate values long before 2010.

In the end, I think they will be forced to accept the ACA in its entirety.
In the end, I know that if forced to abandon their value system; they will close their doors.

Just because you don't believe in God; does not make everyone else ignorant.

The IGNORANCE has nothing to do with disagreeing with me. It has to do with disagreeing with established science about the biological effects of Plan B.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,027]

billvon

>Do corporations have religious beliefs?

They can; they can have any beliefs they want.

>Is ignorance a bona fide religious belief?

How does this stand they take equate to ignorance? Disagreeing with someone is not ignorance.

1) They are now objecting to prescription medications that they covered voluntarily until 2012. That suggests political, not religious motivation.

2)The company argues that emergency contraception pills, such as Ella and Plan B, destroy fertilized eggs by interfering with implantation in the uterus. Hobby Lobby's owners consider this abortion according to briefs filed in the case.

However, research on how these pills work, and the findings are definitive: They prevent pregnancy by blocking ovulation. In fact, they don't work once ovulation has occurred.

www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/02/22/172595689/morning-after-pills-dont-cause-abortion-studies-say

Source:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20399948



So yes, I consider this WILFUL IGNORANCE intended to deceive.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,027]

kelpdiver

***
>Is ignorance a bona fide religious belief?

How does this stand they take equate to ignorance? Disagreeing with someone is not ignorance.

He referred specifically to "because it believes that contraception causes abortions, even when the science says clearly that it doesn't" as an example of ignorance.

With the exception of Plan B, contraceptives prevent conception (duh), they do not cause abortions.

Plan B is now known to prevent conception.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[BIGUN 1,319]

kallend

***Several major corporations have espoused their religious beliefs as part of their corporate values long before 2010.

In the end, I think they will be forced to accept the ACA in its entirety.
In the end, I know that if forced to abandon their value system; they will close their doors.

Just because you don't believe in God; does not make everyone else ignorant.

The IGNORANCE has nothing to do with disagreeing with me. It has to do with disagreeing with established science about the biological effects of Plan B.

My apologies, I didn't realize you were talking about Plan B.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.