NIPCC report on global warming...

[Stumpy 284]

lawrocket

Finding any product without a long list of negatives is a fool's errand.

Bacon.

HA!

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[lawrocket 3]

DanG

Quote

Shut down all coal-fired energy and how many tens off millions will die in the US within six months?

Please be so kind as to point out where I said anything about shutting down all coal fired energy in the next six months.

You didn't. But you said you were against coal. I am asking how you could be against something that - right now as I sit here - is keeping billions alive.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 2,028]

lawrocket

I'm one of those weirdos that thinks that those things that do stuff like keep people alive are good things. Shut down all coal-fired energy and how many tens off millions will die in the US within six months?

Fewer than you think, natural gas is taking over very quickly.

And don't forget about the death toll from coal mining, both from accidents and from environmental issues.

I spent a day down a coal mine once (back in 1971). I hope I never have to go down a coal mine again.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[airdvr 210]

DanG

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Which side do you come down on coal fired electricity?

I'm against it. Too many pollutants, regardless of the greenhouse effect.

Well, you said we should wean ourselves off oil. How do you propose we do that? There's a ying and yang here that most overlook.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[StreetScooby 5]

Just came across this Forbes article dated today:

The IPCC's Latest Report Deliberately Excludes And Misrepresents Important Climate Science

We are all engines of karma

[billvon 3,008]

> I am asking how you could be against something that - right now as I sit here -
>is keeping billions alive.

Slavery kept a lot of people alive, as did horse-and-canal transportation, child labor, Prohibition and the coal smogs that killed thousands in London. Fortunately we moved beyond those things as well. The trick is to make steady progress, even if you can't solve everything at once.

[StreetScooby 5]

This NIPCC group is looking more real to me by the moment...

http://climatechangereconsidered.org/

From the Forbes article above...

Quote

The NIPCC reports were conceived and written to offer a way out of this conundrum. They are written in a style that laymen without special training can understand, provide explanations of how research was conducted and summarizing the actual findings, often quoting at length from original scholarly sources. Chapters often present research chronologically, in the order in which the studies were published, so readers can understand how the debate has changed over time.

The NIPCC reports are hefty – the first volume in the Climate Change Reconsidered series was 850 pages long, and the latest volume is more than 1,000 pages – but executive summaries and “key findings” at the beginning of each chapter make them easy to navigate and fascinating to browse. They are all available for free online at www.climatechangereconsidered.org.

I like this...

We are all engines of karma

[DanG 1]

Quote

Well, you said we should wean ourselves off oil. How do you propose we do that? There's a ying and yang here that most overlook.

By investing in alternative, sustainable energy sources, including nuclear. We do need a bridge fuel, and natural gas is better than coal.

- Dan G

[DanG 1]

Quote

You didn't. But you said you were against coal. I am asking how you could be against something that - right now as I sit here - is keeping billions alive.

Stop with the silly courtroom theatrics, please.

- Dan G

[Amazon 7]

DanG

Quote

Which side do you come down on coal fired electricity?

I'm against it. Too many pollutants, regardless of the greenhouse effect.

Ask the people along the Dan River in NC how they feel about pollutants from Duke Energy. http://www.csmonitor.com/Environment/2014/0210/Coal-ash-spill-How-certain-that-Dan-River-is-safe-for-drinking-wildlife-video

OR

http://charlotte.cbslocal.com/2014/02/11/north-carolina-dumps-coal-ash-deal-with-duke-energy/

Sure.. dump all that crap in the water... at some point drinkable water is going to be a VERY expensive commodity with which to control the population.

Clean water is life.. polluted water kills

[kallend 2,028]

DanG

Quote

You didn't. But you said you were against coal. I am asking how you could be against something that - right now as I sit here - is keeping billions alive.

Stop with the silly courtroom theatrics, please.

It's his training. You know the adage about having a hammer...

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

lawrocket

[Reply]Coal is "cheap and easy" in the short term, but not so much if you look at the entire picture and in the longer term.

Of course. Everything does. Look at the cost of the nylon over our heads. It comes from crude oil. Look at the cost in lives with wars over oil, etc.

Finding any product without a long list of negatives is a fool's errand.

[lawrocket 3]

There's the word again. "Best." As you've identified. And that all depends on what you individually find important.

I think that plastic grocery bags are "better" for the environment than paper bags. Others disagree because what I think is a benefit (that they don't decompose into other nasty stuff like leachates and methane and CO2) is what others think is a problem - that they don't biodegrade.

It's a reasonable discussion. Both sides have rational reasons for their preferences. And it's the same with nearly every topic out there.

All I know is what's best for me. I don't claim to know what's best for anyone else. It's why I'm no politician.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[DanG 1]

So what's the upside of coal?

- Dan G

[StreetScooby 5]

Quote

There's the word again. "Best."

I watched a recent hearing on CSPAN where the new head of the EPA was being questioned by the relevant committee. She used that word, "best", in every other sentence. "We're doing our best". I was appalled. Keep thinking to myself - this isn't grade school where you get marks for just trying...

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

Quote

So what's the upside of coal?

It meets the current energy needs of our society very well.

We are all engines of karma

[Amazon 7]

StreetScooby

Quote

So what's the upside of coal?

It meets the current energy needs of our society very well.

And the long term effects???

Water we can't drink.. and air that we can't breathe is not what future generations will be thanking these generations alive now for.

[DanG 1]

Quote

It meets the current energy needs of our society very well.

I agree, which is why (contrary to lawrocket's strawman) I never said we have to drop it tomorrow.

But it's silly to say that because it meets our current energy needs, we shouldn't be working on alternatives to replace it.

- Dan G

[StreetScooby 5]

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But it's silly to say that because it meets our current energy needs, we shouldn't be working on alternatives to replace it.

We're in agreement there. Hopefully, those working on this are rational adults who know how to fully account for all of the energy life cycles, and calculate ROI.

We are all engines of karma

[tonyhays 86]

http://inhabitat.com/japan-plans-to-harvest-solar-power-from-space-by-2030/

There's your solution. Imagine what could happen if every country got on board with the research/building costs.

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

DanG

So what's the upside of coal?

Short term cost, availability, large number of places already using it.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[lawrocket 3]

[Quote]But it's silly to say that because it meets our current energy needs, we shouldn't be working on alternatives to replace it.

We are. We have been. I'm in Cali,m and our power capacity from coal is pretty insignificant. We use a lot of natural gas. We have geothermal, wind and hydro.

The problem: every proposed solution to coal is objected to by someone. Coal gets shut down because everybody hates it and something to replace the capacity isn't there yet. And whatever is there is more expensive.

We could easily replace coal. But we can't replace it with anything else due to the nature of politics. It'd be swell if we could get rid of coal but we've stamped out the alternatives. And the coal industry isn't the only group stamping out the alternatives.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[brenthutch 444]

Coal IS a bridge fuel.

[DanG 1]

Quote

Coal IS a bridge fuel.

Bridging from what, whale blubber?

- Dan G

[brenthutch 444]

Bingo!
Think about it.