kallend 2,027 #51 May 1, 2014 CoreeceHas anybody else noticed the peculiarity of this incident given the prior events surrounding this case with regard to Oklahoma’s supplier-secrecy law? Indeed, and the only reason the Court approved the secrecy is that OK lawmakers threatened to impeach the justices if they didn't approve. www.tulsaworld.com/news/courts/some-oklahoma-supreme-court-justices-could-face-impeachment/article_8d55fb98-cb23-11e3-9250-001a4bcf6878.html The comment from one Oklahoman: “In Oklahoma’s haste to conduct a science experiment on two men behind a veil of secrecy, our state has disgraced itself before the nation and world” nicely sums it up.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #52 May 3, 2014 kallend***Has anybody else noticed the peculiarity of this incident given the prior events surrounding this case with regard to Oklahoma’s supplier-secrecy law? Indeed, and the only reason the Court approved the secrecy is that OK lawmakers threatened to impeach the justices if they didn't approve. Well, if justices are going to give into threats, then perhaps they are not fit for the position. This whole thing just stinks... Was this botched execution a coincidence? Was it Divine Intervention to shame the deliberately obtuse? (those in favor of secrecy?) Or was it what I saw projected onto my tin foil silver silver-screen - a deliberately botched execution that will most certainly be used in favor of those against secrecy and/or the death penalty? Personally I don't think my foilism is that far fetched considering the heated politics and blatant extortion of Justices surrounding this case...I mean seriously, is a deliberately botched execution beyond the morality of these types of people: From Article: QuoteThe appeals for disclosure about the drug sources, supported by a state court in March, threw Oklahoma’s highest courts and elected officials into weeks of conflict and disarray, with courts arguing over which should consider the request for a politically unpopular stay of execution, the governor defying the State Supreme Court’s ruling for a delay, and a legislator seeking impeachment of the justices. ( for doing their job?) "Tuesday night’s bungled execution...is certain to generate more challenges to lethal injection" Personally, I'm against secrecery laws, and if they are overturned it will spell the end to lethal injection, which I might add, gives credence to my foilist view. I know politics, I watch House of Cards.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
raff 4 #53 May 3, 2014 I've got an idea. Let's kill people who kill people to prove that killing people is a bad thing. Cap Punishment: what a joke!If you leave the plane without a parachute, you will be fine for the rest of your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 803 #54 May 3, 2014 Dude, there's less killing if we kill more people!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bertt 0 #55 May 5, 2014 If, by embarrassing farce, you mean Oklahoma, you might have a point. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/05/05/wildfire-oklahoma-evacuate/8713525/ executive summary: Oklahoma controlled burn goes out of control and kills one person.You don't have to outrun the bear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #56 May 5, 2014 >Cap Punishment: what a joke! I've got no issue with capital punishment for murderers. From a practical standpoint, it ensures they won't kill anyone else. We would all be safer as a result. It has nothing to do with revenge or "he deserves it" or "the victim's family wants blah blah blah" - it has to do with protecting the people who are still alive, and secondarily deterring other people who might try it. However, that's assuming we know they are murderers - and that means the system that makes that determination has to be close to perfect. It's not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cgriff 0 #57 May 5, 2014 billvonHowever, that's assuming we know they are murderers - and that means the system that makes that determination has to be close to perfect. It's not. And THAT is the key for me. It's not a question of justice, or punishment, or even prevention. It's a question of trust. Do you trust the government with your life? I know I do not... They have proven time and again that they are not consistently capable of determining guilt, and just one innocent life is enough to outweigh any possible benefit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #58 May 6, 2014 cgriff***However, that's assuming we know they are murderers - and that means the system that makes that determination has to be close to perfect. It's not. And THAT is the key for me. It's not a question of justice, or punishment, or even prevention. It's a question of trust. Do you trust the government with your life? I know I do not... They have proven time and again that they are not consistently capable of determining guilt, and just one innocent life is enough to outweigh any possible benefit. While true, that is too narrow a view. Even if juries, the police, prosecutors and crime labs never made a mistake, capital punishment is racially disparate, geographically arbitrary, and based upon the economic status of capital defendants. And it makes no sense for the state to kill people to emphasize that killing people is wrong.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #59 May 6, 2014 Andy9o8 ***The it is obvious you make NO distinction between crime and justice. It is obvious you still beat your wife. When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #60 May 6, 2014 rehmwa***If you take the time to see what he had done to his victims, you would know he deserved much worse... that's not the point of execution - it's not about what he 'deserves' or not. It's about removing the threat from society. That's what WE deserved your comment feeds the "all people want is revenge" comment - which is a silly tangent discussion tactic Okie screwed up - using drugs, etc and trying to make it 'palatable' to the public is a sop. IF we must execute, then it needs to direct and effective. Complex drug delivery system? chambers?....I don't see any of those being a practical and efficient way to do it. If we use a series of drugs, then they should be administered directly and each step of the process confirmed. When this stuff happens, suddenly the guillotine doesn't seem so brutal anymore. Or shots to the head. (private, no observers would be the way to go - it's carrying out a sentence, not putting on a show). (and no, the idea of closed vs open casket being indicative of cruel/unusual is a silly discussion, humane/typical should be strictly defined as quick/minimal pain) A bolus of heparin followed by a IV line into a bucket should do the trick.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wayneflorida 0 #61 May 6, 2014 This is an embarrassing farce. Dutch politician’s killer freed after 12 years Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #62 May 6, 2014 >Even if juries, the police, prosecutors and crime labs never made a mistake, capital >punishment is racially disparate, geographically arbitrary, and based upon the >economic status of capital defendants. If every single person on death row were black (or white, or male, or Muslim) it wouldn't bother me one bit - PROVIDED the justice system was 100% accurate. Why would it bother you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #63 May 7, 2014 billvon>Even if juries, the police, prosecutors and crime labs never made a mistake, capital >punishment is racially disparate, geographically arbitrary, and based upon the >economic status of capital defendants. If every single person on death row were black (or white, or male, or Muslim) it wouldn't bother me one bit - PROVIDED the justice system was 100% accurate. Why would it bother you? 1. It can't ever be 100% accurate. 2. It would still be geographically arbitrary, and based upon the economic status of defendants. 3. Killing people to show that killing people is wrong makes no sense.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
metalslug 36 #64 May 7, 2014 Quote 3. Killing people to show that killing people is wrong makes no sense. Do you advocate that we should take the worst kinds of killers and give them free room & board ? ...as a deterrent for others who may be considering the same type of crime ? Do you reckon that'll do it ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #65 May 7, 2014 Well its worked in SA hasn't it?..... Oh, no it hasn't has it in fact since the DP was abolished in SA its turned into a crime nightmare.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #66 May 7, 2014 metalslugQuote 3. Killing people to show that killing people is wrong makes no sense. Do you advocate that we should take the worst kinds of killers and give them free room & board ? ...as a deterrent for others who may be considering the same type of crime ? Do you reckon that'll do it ? Why not. We give "free room and board" to rapists, child molestors, pedophiles, etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #67 May 7, 2014 metalslugQuote 3. Killing people to show that killing people is wrong makes no sense. Do you advocate that we should take the worst kinds of killers and give them free room & board ? ...as a deterrent for others who may be considering the same type of crime ? Do you reckon that'll do it ? Works in Western Europe. They have lower homicide rates than the USA. Also the "free room and board" actually costs less than the cost of a capital case. www.nytimes.com/2009/09/28/opinion/28mon3.html... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #68 May 7, 2014 SkyradWell its worked in SA hasn't it?..... Oh, no it hasn't has it in fact since the DP was abolished in SA its turned into a crime nightmare. Yes, there is no chance that situation had any confounding factors..."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #69 May 7, 2014 >1. It can't ever be 100% accurate. It can be a hell of a lot better than the system we have now. >2. It would still be geographically arbitrary, and based upon the economic status of defendants. Who cares? Taxes are geographically arbitrary; they are higher in places where there are lots of people. Schools are geographically arbitrary; they are also in places where there are lots of people. Roads are geographically arbitrary. Etc etc. >3. Killing people to show that killing people is wrong makes no sense. Killing people to ensure they don't kill again makes a lot of sense to me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 221 #70 May 8, 2014 kallend***>Even if juries, the police, prosecutors and crime labs never made a mistake, capital >punishment is racially disparate, geographically arbitrary, and based upon the >economic status of capital defendants. If every single person on death row were black (or white, or male, or Muslim) it wouldn't bother me one bit - PROVIDED the justice system was 100% accurate. Why would it bother you? 1. It can't ever be 100% accurate. 2. It would still be geographically arbitrary, and based upon the economic status of defendants. 3. Killing people to show that killing people is wrong makes no sense. BUT . . . killing people that have done nothing wrong is perfectly acceptable when it's inconvenient.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #71 May 8, 2014 turtlespeed******>Even if juries, the police, prosecutors and crime labs never made a mistake, capital >punishment is racially disparate, geographically arbitrary, and based upon the >economic status of capital defendants. If every single person on death row were black (or white, or male, or Muslim) it wouldn't bother me one bit - PROVIDED the justice system was 100% accurate. Why would it bother you? 1. It can't ever be 100% accurate. 2. It would still be geographically arbitrary, and based upon the economic status of defendants. 3. Killing people to show that killing people is wrong makes no sense. BUT . . . killing people that have done nothing wrong is perfectly acceptable when it's inconvenient. Have you been at the tequila again?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #72 May 14, 2014 Well, we now have a Texas execution delayed at the last minute because it has come to light that the state withheld evidence from the defense, and possibly lied too. High time to stop this embarrassing farce.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 221 #73 May 14, 2014 kallend Well, we now have a Texas execution delayed at the last minute because it has come to light that the state withheld evidence from the defense, and possibly lied too. High time to stop this embarrassing farce. Guess we'll see how it pans out.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jpjc2000 0 #74 May 14, 2014 kallend***>Even if juries, the police, prosecutors and crime labs never made a mistake, capital >punishment is racially disparate, geographically arbitrary, and based upon the >economic status of capital defendants. If every single person on death row were black (or white, or male, or Muslim) it wouldn't bother me one bit - PROVIDED the justice system was 100% accurate. Why would it bother you? 1. It can't ever be 100% accurate. 2. It would still be geographically arbitrary, and based upon the economic status of defendants. 3. Killing people to show that killing people is wrong makes no sense. 1. Nothing is 100% accurate, who ever said it was? 2. Always been that way, will always be that way as long as humans are sucking air. 3. Killing people who killed I don't disagree with, but it's not a deterrent to someone while committing the crime. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 803 #75 May 14, 2014 Texas bragged they were the "Gold standard". And yet another cleared... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
