Big Merger

[freethefly 6]

richravizza

YOU HIT THE NAIL.
Companies are leaving California in droves to more Tax friendly Places like Nevada and Texas.
Pfiser is just playing on on international scale.
It's Definitely not about Love and loyalty.
It's all about a Dollar.

Capitalism always gets a blame, but what other way is there?

Toyota is moving 4000 jobs to Texas. A loss for California and Kentucky. A big loss for Texas as well. Taxpayers in Texas will foot a 40 million dollar bill. To date, Texas taxpayers have given 558 million to corporate welfare. Hope they are happy.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[kelpdiver 2]

richravizza

YOU HIT THE NAIL.
Companies are leaving California in droves to more Tax friendly Places like Nevada and Texas.
Pfiser is just playing on on international scale.
It's Definitely not about Love and loyalty.
It's all about a Dollar.

when the work is commodity work, certainly. But when companies want high talent, they come to California.

BTW, it was funny seeing Texas lobby Tesla for that battery factory after crapping on their efforts to sell cars to Texans. That was probably a gift to Nevada.

[billvon 3,067]

>It will create MORE pollution because these countries won't have people - like you
>- to protest and watch over the process and demand it be made cleaner.

They're there right now. And as soon as their society can afford it they will start heeding them. Heck, even China is starting to crack down on polluters.

>You really are a cold hearted business person deep inside.

I'm a contradiction, I am.

[kelpdiver 2]

Iago

Why in the world Tesla is even considering building a manufacturing plant in CA is a bit of a mystery. Didn't SF just have a strike because the BART workers decided $130k a year wasn't enough and they should get a 20% raise?

well, for one they already have a manufacturing plant here. And their pick of the lot when they want to hire. A couple weekends ago they tried to have a hiring event and it caused such a traffic disturbance (backing up onto a freeway, causing fights to break out between drivers even) that it was necessary to cancel it and regroup.

Not sure how BART strikes are relevant. Also, your facts are a bit off on the 130k part. Still grossly overpaid, but not that much so.

[billvon 3,067]

>Why in the world Tesla is even considering building a manufacturing plant in CA
>is a bit of a mystery.

Because for the short term getting excellent people is going to take priority over low cost. Once they start manufacturing lower cost vehicles they will likely move manufacturing to Tennessee or some other lower-cost area.

[quade 4]

Have you considered that maybe Elon Musk feels he already has enough money and simply likes to live where he made most of it?

I recently saw a small documentary about the man and he's splitting his time between SpaceEx, Tesla. He works three at each company and spends the seven with his family. He's a busy man with a LOT of irons in the fire. Not having to fly to BFE to check up on a battery division might be worth it to him.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[mirage62 0]

I'm not just Ca. bashing, I know a LOT of people that love it there - but I also know a bunch now that hate it and can't wait to get out. Seems that it's a case of the people that make a good living like it - but the lower income not on walfare folks don't. The following were just facts I found....I figured that Ca. would kill Texas on graduation rates but was wrong.


Ca. has a high school graduation rate of 78.2% and Texas is 78.9% according to the 2009-2010 U.S. Dept of Education.

Perhaps Ca. high school degree is just a lot better than Texas, I really don't know.

Bloomberg Business reported:

Every now and then, one state governor or another will head to California to pitch businesses on leaving the Golden State. Canada’s immigration chief has been trying his luck, too. The coaxing usually provokes some pundits to bash the state’s high taxes and others to reassure middle-class Californians that employers aren’t planning on jumping ship before the state drifts off into the Pacific Ocean.

Much of the angst about California’s economy has been about jobs and whether employers are picking up stakes and heading for Texas. Bureau of Labor Statistics data compiled by Bloomberg News and published this week don’t answer the jobs question, but they do indicate that California is losing ground in a related category: the number of business establishments.

There were 1.3 million businesses in California at the end of 2012, 5.2 percent fewer than in the previous year (that’s about 73,000 fewer). To put that in perspective, Massachusetts lost 5,200 businesses, the second-highest amount, and Kansas had 3.1 percent fewer businesses in 2012 than in 2011, the second-highest loss rate. Nebraska added businesses at 11.9 percent, the fastest rate. Because BLS releases the data on a lag, the end of 2012 is the latest date for which numbers are available

What gives? “It’s more likely the disappearance of a number of businesses than it is businesses leaving California,” says Kevin Klowden, an economist at the Milken Institute’s California Center. The state was hard hit by the Great Recession, Klowden continues, and businesses may still be shuttering in a hangover from tougher economic times. It could also be the case of an improving job market luring entrepreneurs of necessity away from their businesses, a trend that’s shown up in national data on new business starts.

In other words, it’s not exactly clear why California’s businesses are disappearing. Florida, another state hard hit by the bursting of the real estate bubble, and the state with the second most businesses, added new businesses at the nation’s seventh-fastest rate.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[quade 4]

Well, maybe, but I also think it takes a special kind of hubris to question the man responsible for creating such things out of nothing. Some kind of special ego to think you know more than he does about how to run the company.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[kelpdiver 2]

mirage62

Ca. has a high school graduation rate of 78.2% and Texas is 78.9% according to the 2009-2010 U.S. Dept of Education.

Perhaps Ca. high school degree is just a lot better than Texas, I really don't know.

California, like Texas, has a significant immigrant population that struggles to complete school, though likely (won't bet on) has a wider range of non other languages spoken by these people. It also has the usual big city ghetto problems around terribly low graduation rates.

The congregation of talent in along the coasts is more about the college graduates. When an area accumulates talent, it tends to become an accelerating trend because the good people want to be around others, and the wide range of job opportunities that result. As an alternate theory I just saw - tech has a high tendency to relocate to the Bay Area because the VC types that allow them to thrive are also concentrated here.

[kelpdiver 2]

billvon

>Why in the world Tesla is even considering building a manufacturing plant in CA
>is a bit of a mystery.

Because for the short term getting excellent people is going to take priority over low cost. Once they start manufacturing lower cost vehicles they will likely move manufacturing to Tennessee or some other lower-cost area.

Also - at this point they are already making the cars in Fremont. Building the batteries in Texas, shipping them here, and then shipping the finished product back out again seems ungainly.

At a larger production level, otoh, maybe you just use tester battery packs, ship out the lighter weight bare cars, and use a central location to build and ship out the heavy batteries. They've been working on rapid easy battery installs as part of their freeway networks, so it could be an end result.

But not in Texas, where Perry has made it clear that they want Tesla jobs, but not its business.

[champu 1]

A little over ten years ago I was holding two job offers. One was in Ft Lauderdale and the other was in Southern California. There were a lot of factors to consider but the number of tech companies in general in California (and related to space in particular) in case I wanted to move was a pretty big one.

I appreciate what Musk does for the space industry in bringing launch costs down, but from what I understand working for him is better for your resume than your bank account or your blood pressure.

/eta: I will say this though, I was at King Harbor Brewing Co. with some coworkers for happy hour a couple weeks ago and a bus rolled up and out walked about two dozen SpaceX employees, half of them with their badges still on to have a round... so he's getting something right.

[billvon 3,067]

>True, but you have to consider that most 'skilled' employees (i.e. Engineers,
>scientists, etc.) are going to be 2-3 year employees anyways. That's just the way
>it works in the modern world.

Right, but you would have to pay far higher wages to someone to live in West Virginia or Tennessee (the "unhappiest" states in the US per Gallup) to get the same level of talent. To an employer that may not be a good deal.

>I could put my plant in a low cost state, pay higher
>wages to attract the right people, and when they leave in 2-3 years they have FAR
>more money in their pockets than if CA was involved.

Yes, they could. Personally I'd rather live in a place within an hour of four drop zones, within 5 minutes of a beach and within 2 hours of skiing. Apparently a lot of people share that thinking.

[billvon 3,067]

>I'm not just Ca. bashing, I know a LOT of people that love it there - but I
>know a bunch now that hate it and can't wait to get out.

That's fine. I am all for people living where they want. Fewer people would mean less traffic, less insane real estate prices and lower costs of living.

[kelpdiver 2]

Iago

So, do you own NO corporate stock or are you just ignorant how the whole thing works? When Elon went public with Tesla he became a bitch to other people that want payout.

Do you? Since the IPO at $17 3 years ago, he has taken the stock to the $200 level (52 week high $265, low $85). Marc Andriessen was a lucky drunk, but because of Netscape, investors will follow him anywhere. And who questioned Jobs?

Also, he owns a 32% stake in the company and a board full of allies, so it's a bit difficult to force him to do anything. Surely you've seen the difficulties by those who tried to force Apple or Berkshire to pay out dividends. Though it's not as bad as Facebook where Zuckerberg still retains a majority of voting shares, as also seen with Google.

Just because a company is public doesn't mean the "public" has a majority of votes.

[turtlespeed 226]

richravizza

YOU HIT THE NAIL.
Companies are leaving California in droves to more Tax friendly Places like Nevada and Texas.
Pfiser is just playing on on international scale.
It's Definitely not about Love and loyalty.
It's all about a Dollar.

Capitalism always gets a blame, but what other way is there?

Last time I looked, most people do not keep their job for the love of country.

Is there something that makes a corporation different? Should a corporation be more patriotic?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[turtlespeed 226]

freethefly

***YOU HIT THE NAIL.
Companies are leaving California in droves to more Tax friendly Places like Nevada and Texas.
Pfiser is just playing on on international scale.
It's Definitely not about Love and loyalty.
It's all about a Dollar.

Capitalism always gets a blame, but what other way is there?

Toyota is moving 4000 jobs to Texas. A loss for California and Kentucky. A big loss for Texas as well. Taxpayers in Texas will foot a 40 million dollar bill. To date, Texas taxpayers have given 558 million to corporate welfare. Hope they are happy.

OH - WE ARE . . . We had a billion in surplus because of the companies moving here.

See how that works?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[kelpdiver 2]

turtlespeed

OH - WE ARE . . . We had a billion in surplus because of the companies moving here.

See how that works?

seems more likely it stems from this:
http://energyindepth.org/texas/texas-oil-and-gas-generate-900-million-in-new-tax-revenue/

good policy by the state directing 75% of this TAX (gasp) into a Rainy Day Fund vehicle.

[billvon 3,067]

>Taxpayers in Texas will pay $10000 per job. They'll get that back within a few
>months on sales taxes and economic activity boosts.

And that's the tradeoff states very often make. Higher individual taxes for (hopefully) even higher tax revenue in the long run. They are effectively betting that the taxpayers they get with the corporate incentives will outweigh the taxpayers they will lose with higher personal taxes.

Since this is Speaker's Corner I'll translate it into SC-speak:

Right: So what you are saying is the government is going to shove their hands into your wallet to take your money and give it to their political friends?

Left: Why isn't this money going to the people who really need it? No way this makes sense unless you increase it a little more and give it to the people who _really_ need it.

[quade 4]

There is a third and more insidious aspect of the practice of corporate tax incentives though and it kicks in a few year down the road when another state offers a bigger tax incentive and a company pulls up stakes and leaves. This happens slightly less frequently with car companies, but in my industry it is freakin' out of control.

The country would be MUCH better off if they simply outlawed the practice altogether. Then companies would simply settle where it makes the most sense rather than in which state is willing to bribe them the most.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rehmwa 2]

quade

The country would be MUCH better off if they simply outlawed the practice altogether. Then companies would simply settle where it makes the most sense rather than in which state is willing to bribe them the most.

that statement is an interesting mix of Dem/Rep ("we should outlaw it") - and libertarian (the rest of the quote)

in short ----> We need law to force government to not be so intrusive.....

i like it - too bad it just doesn't happen on its own. I feel same as you, though I'd extend it greatly to more than just corporate assistance

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kelpdiver 2]

Iago

Taxpayers in Texas will pay $10000 per job. They'll get that back within a few months on sales taxes and economic activity boosts.

I'd call that a bargain.

You'll need to explain the math to me. Texas charges a state sales tax of 6.25%, and local taxes can be up to 2% more, so max rate of 8.25%.

In order to reclaim 10k, there would need to be 121k in taxable events coming from this job. But that doesn't include rent or mortgage payments or non prepared food.

Texas isn't a particularly high income state. It would be generous to assume a 40k salary, which in 3 months would result in a gross income of 10k, with the feds grabbing at least 15%, housing grabbing the next 20%, food another 10%, so first order sales tax couldn't be higher than $450, (against a very unlikely 5500 in spending) and there's no way that secondary effects will be 20X more.

[turtlespeed 226]

kelpdiver

***
Taxpayers in Texas will pay $10000 per job. They'll get that back within a few months on sales taxes and economic activity boosts.

I'd call that a bargain.

You'll need to explain the math to me. Texas charges a state sales tax of 6.25%, and local taxes can be up to 2% more, so max rate of 8.25%.

In order to reclaim 10k, there would need to be 121k in taxable events coming from this job. But that doesn't include rent or mortgage payments or non prepared food.

Texas isn't a particularly high income state. It would be generous to assume a 40k salary, which in 3 months would result in a gross income of 10k, with the feds grabbing at least 15%, housing grabbing the next 20%, food another 10%, so first order sales tax couldn't be higher than $450, (against a very unlikely 5500 in spending) and there's no way that secondary effects will be 20X more.

You forget about corporate franchise tax, property tax for the business, and the other taxes involved.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[richravizza 28]

kelpdiver

***YOU HIT THE NAIL.
Companies are leaving California in droves to more Tax friendly Places like Nevada and Texas.
Pfiser is just playing on on international scale.
It's Definitely not about Love and loyalty.
It's all about a Dollar.

when the work is commodity work, certainly. But when companies want high talent, they come to California.

BTW, it was funny seeing Texas lobby Tesla for that battery factory after crapping on their efforts to sell cars to Texans. That was probably a gift to Nevada.

How about something on a smaller scale.

My dad,now pays more than half of his military retirement JUST on Real estate Tax in L.A. .

Nevada has a deal for Vets.Come here with your Retirement checks and Pay NO real estate tax.
He's seriously considering..
I see his point..
and the state knows he's not going to be a burden on the health care,public services and No kids for the State to educate.
What a Win, Win..
Problem is, I'm the loser

[kelpdiver 2]

richravizza

My dad,now pays more than half of his military retirement JUST on Real estate Tax in L.A. .

If so, it's because he just bought a home here, which means he chose to take on this tax. Otherwise, it can only increase 2% per year, and it's 1-~1.2% of the purchase price of the home. This is substantially lower than many states, and with the guarantee of consistency. I've seen others as high as 4%.

Of course, LA and California real estate is pricier, so mine comes close to 10k/year. But I know it will still be that way in 20 years.

[kelpdiver 2]

turtlespeed

You forget about corporate franchise tax, property tax for the business, and the other taxes involved.

No - he said the return would come merely from "sales taxes and economic activity boosts."

And if Texas were nickel and diming the company with these other taxes, why would they move there in the first place?