What's everyone's opinion on convicted and registered sex offenders being TI's?

[SivaGanesha 2]

promise5

1) rapist
2) anything involving a child.

OK--but there are ways of making this determination today without having to exclude those guilty of lesser crimes that might, technically, be considered sex offenses.

I think almost everyone agrees that it is desirable to exclude rapists and anything involving a child (where "child" does NOT mean either of two close-in-age adolescents). I can't agree with your solution that you admit "stinks" of excluding all sex offenders no matter how minor the offense. There are better solutions--viable at present--that don't "stink" or at least don't "stink" as badly. But if a given DZO wants to exclude a given person for whatever reason that is their choice. I don't have any say in what the DZO does. I do--at least in theory--have a say in what USPA does through my vote for the Board of Directors.

If a candidate for Board of Directors presented your solution I wouldn't vote for them. Period.

As for your concern that a minor crime might be a plea bargain down from something more serious--yes, that is always possible but I feel it is not a good basis to make a decision. If you used that as a basis, where would it stop? I mean, even someone getting a speeding ticket might be fleeing the scene of a rape for which the police never got enough evidence to charge. Are we going to bar everyone with speeding tickets?

I do agree with two points you've repeated a couple of times: (1) This is definitely a real problem that should be addressed and (2) Your proposed solution stinks. There are better solutions that solve this problem at least as well as it can be solved and which don't stink as badly.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[PLFXpert 0]

Quote

a minor crime might be a plea bargain down from something more serious--yes, that is always possible but I feel it is not a good basis to make a decision.

I am not sure the "better safe than sorry" method is a bad basis to make a decision or "intolerant" in-and-of itself from a business-owner standpoint. Let me attempt to explain:

I am a DZO and after seeing a TI applicant's name on the sex offender registry, I ask questions and determine it was a minor offense and he/she is of no danger to my staff/customers. Later "something" of an unwanted sexual-in-nature offense occurs by said TI to a customer. Customer presses charges and it is fact that I, as the DZO, was aware this person was a registered sex offender. It would not matter what "minor offense" he/she was registered for. I knowingly hired a registered sex offender and he/she committed a sex crime against one of my customers.

Quote

OK--but there are ways of making this determination today without having to exclude those guilty of lesser crimes that might, technically, be considered sex offenses.

I am a busy DZO and short of background check, checking the sex offender registry and an interview, if I cannot determine most certainly within that scope the applicant is safe to hire as a TI, I do not hire. Asking me to dive further than that is asking for special privileges.

What we have now is what I as the DZO has to work with. Just like not every registered offender on today's list is of a danger to society, not every peeing, streaking or 18/16-year-old registered offender is innocent (just like not everyone caught peeing, streaking or sleeping with their younger S/O is required to register). Again, I need to be able to determine within the previously-mentioned scope whether-or-not I want to hire someone. No special privileges because one may have been delt an unfair hand.

Now, I have previously conceded there is a need for improved guidelines as to what constitutes a sexual offender dangerous or potentially dangerous to society. A more refined list would certainly be more useful and I would advocate for that all day long.

And just to be clear: My example is not meant to advocate for a mandate that all DZOs adopt a "better safe than sorry" policy. They can run their businesses as they see fit within the confines of the law.

Also to be clear: I am speaking from a business-owner standpoint in which I am liable and responsible for the safety of my staff and customers. From a personal standpoint, I can determine whatever at my own risk to me and me alone to hire to maintain the grounds at one of my personal properties or whatever I need/see fit.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[SivaGanesha 2]

PLFXpert

I am a DZO

Then it's not my place to try to tell you how to run your business.

But if you go beyond that role and start asking USPA to make changes I disagree with on a sport-wide basis--beyond your own DZ--I will exercise my right to vote for candidates more in keeping with my own views. (Although, just to tell it like it is, as a DZO you will probably have more clout than I.)

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[promise5 17]

Were they tried and convicted of murder? Served their sentence and now are out?

No matter how slowly you say oranges it never sounds like gullible.
Believe me I tried.

[Coreece 190]

Arvoitus

How about murderers? Can they work as TI's?

That's not the point...it's pretty simple actually.

Many people think women are complicated, but they're pretty simple. it's men who are complicated and we tend to make complicated the simplest of things.

Luckymcswervy said it best:

Quote

My opinion is no fucking way. Just what someone needs. Being strapped to the lap of a convicted sexual offender. The TI getting their jollies "legally".

This is not a problem with convicted murders who have served their time...they're just sexy bad boys.

...but seriously tho, it's not the same.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[SivaGanesha 2]

Coreece

Many people think women are complicated, but they're pretty simple. it's men who are complicated and we tend to make complicated the simplest of things.

Well I'm a guy and I think my position on this is quite simple: it is up to the DZO. Period.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[SivaGanesha 2]

Arvoitus

How about murderers? Can they work as TI's?

Also up to the DZO.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[quade 4]

SivaGanesha

***How about murderers? Can they work as TI's?

Also up to the DZO.

What if it IS the DZO? I mean, you know, allegedly.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[SivaGanesha 2]

quade

What if it IS the DZO? I mean, you know, allegedly.

Although I've argued against direct, high level, USPA involvement in this thread--in such a circumstance I would make an exception. In such a circumstance, I would feel that the absolute least that the USPA board of directors could do would be to support the bereaved husband in any way possible.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[Coreece 190]

SivaGanesha

***Many people think women are complicated, but they're pretty simple. it's men who are complicated and we tend to make complicated the simplest of things.

Well I'm a guy and I think my position on this is quite simple: it is up to the DZO. Period.

Then fine, no sex offenders rubbing up on a woman's ass...simple.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Arvoitus 1]

promise5

Were they tried and convicted of murder? Served their sentence and now are out?

Yes and yes.

Your rights end where my feelings begin.

[promise5 17]

I know you'll probably jump all over this and others will too.

That's not for me to decide and I don't feel it my battle. If others want to take that up they can.

No matter how slowly you say oranges it never sounds like gullible.
Believe me I tried.

[SivaGanesha 2]

Coreece

Then fine, no sex offenders rubbing up on a woman's ass...simple.

But here's the thing. That kind of language used to describe a tandem jump--"rubbing up on a woman's ass"--makes me extremely uncomfortable regardless of whether the guy is a registered sex offender or not. It makes it sound like there's something sexual about a tandem jump at least when the passenger is of the gender that the TI is attracted to. It makes it sound like TI's are getting some sort of pleasure of an inappropriate kind from these jumps but most are just smart enough not to cross a line where they become registered sex offenders. If that's how tandem is seen, it makes me uncomfortable with the whole concept of tandem.

It makes me uncomfortable, for example, giving a tandem jump as a gift to a female family member. I don't like the idea of the TI somehow getting that kind of pleasure from such a jump regardless of whether he is a registered sex offender or not.

I don't want TI's getting sexual pleasure from their work. If that's how the job of a TI is seen then THAT is the problem--and we're focusing on the wrong thing when we talk about registered sex offenders.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[Arvoitus 1]

SivaGanesha

***Then fine, no sex offenders rubbing up on a woman's ass...simple.

But here's the thing. That kind of language used to describe a tandem jump--"rubbing up on a woman's ass"--makes me extremely uncomfortable regardless of whether the guy is a registered sex offender or not. It makes it sound like there's something sexual about a tandem jump at least when the passenger is of the gender that the TI is attracted to. It makes it sound like TI's are getting some sort of pleasure of an inappropriate kind from these jumps but most are just smart enough not to cross a line where they become registered sex offenders. If that's how tandem is seen, it makes me uncomfortable with the whole concept of tandem.

It makes me uncomfortable, for example, giving a tandem jump as a gift to a female family member. I don't like the idea of the TI somehow getting that kind of pleasure from such a jump regardless of whether he is a registered sex offender or not.

I don't want TI's getting sexual pleasure from their work. If that's how the job of a TI is seen then THAT is the problem--and we're focusing on the wrong thing when we talk about registered sex offenders.

Trust me, the only people who might think there is something sexual about tandem are people who've never worked as TI's. Too much stuff going through your mind to be thinking anything sexual.

Your rights end where my feelings begin.

[Arvoitus 1]

promise5

I know you'll probably jump all over this and others will too.

That's not for me to decide and I don't feel it my battle. If others want to take that up they can.

Just so I understand this correctly, in your mind once a murder has served their time everything is okay and they can move on but a sexual offender needs to be punished, after they've served their time, until the end of the natural lives?

Your rights end where my feelings begin.

[promise5 17]

I'm just saying that not my battle. It's someone else's.

THATS what I'm saying.

No matter how slowly you say oranges it never sounds like gullible.
Believe me I tried.

[promise5 17]

Just wanted to add this.
When a survivor is able to do a tandem these are some of the things they have overcome.
Trust is a HUGE thing to a survivor, basically in a short period of time that seems like it's lasted for hours all trust and feeling safe is ripped from you. There may or may not be hurt physically but their soul has been hurt, their sense of value, and so many more things that are hard to describe have been inflicted deeply on them. Hopefully they begin a long and painful process to healing. But sometimes the soul is the hardest to heal. You may not think twice about sitting next to a stranger on a bus or train or standing in a crowd. But when you do that you are in a sense trusting that stranger or strangers not to hurt you. A survivors a lot of times isn't as to. There's the panic, the doubt if they're safe, the could this person hurt me, can I get away, how would I escape. And so many more thoughts can flash through the mind. There are a thousand and one ways a survivor can be triggered and yet has to learn to deal with each one and work towards overcoming that trigger. There's the hard work of learning to trust those you love again yes many times we lose trust in them too. We've also lost trust in ourselves. In our own judgment in the ability to keep ourselves safe and we second guess every minute, every action. I could go on and on about the road to healing but for many it's a life long process. For those of us lucky enough to get extremely expensive help it's still a hard and life changing process. With time and hard work we begin to trust again those we love those that in a sense we're "safe" with but again it hard work. Some never make it, some only make it that far.
Now comes the woman that decides to make a tandem to celebrate the road to healing. She is now going to put her trust in a stranger mostly likely a guy that she met a few minutes before. She will be physically harnessed to him, she will be intimately close to him. Then she's in a plane, a confined space with no exit with people she may or may not know or have just met a minute before. Trusting them to not harm her just like she's placed trust in the TI. Then when it's time to jump she's given up even that tiny bit of control over the situation if she had decided to ride the plane down. Again a Huge step of trust that no one realizes. Each step in the tandem is a huge step of trust for a survivor.
Now the jump. That point where there is absolute freedom from thought and any control we may have had. We have given up everything and trusted a stranger to keep us safe and that trust wasn't misplaced. We've proven to ourselves that we can and will overcome every thing that was stripped from us. That an ugliness no longer has even the tiniest hold on our lives. That's what a tandem can be to a survivor.
I know I've done a bad job of describing it all and repeated myself over several times but as usual my thoughts come a million miles an hour and I want to say so much but just don't know how.

Now you have the TI that is a sex offender that has ripped someone's world apart and yet it's ok for them to do tandems. And if this TI gets a survivor and doesn't have the decency to step aside and let another TI take the survivor? Afterall according to them they paid the price of what they did and it's in their past so hey" suck it up people and deal with it".
Plus, maybe they get a thrill out of having a woman legally in his control again. The thrill of mocking everything the woman has done to heal.
But that's his right for being "good" and hopefully changing or at the least not getting caught.

I know some will take this and advocate for the perps rights and all that. That's fine. I never said they couldn't skydive, I've just said they shouldn't be TI's is that really a lot to ask? I guess for some it is.

No matter how slowly you say oranges it never sounds like gullible.
Believe me I tried.

[promise5 17]

Just wanted to add this.
When a survivor is able to do a tandem these are some of the things they have overcome.
Trust is a HUGE thing to a survivor, basically in a short period of time that seems like it's lasted for hours all trust and feeling safe is ripped from them. They may or may not be hurt physically but their soul has been hurt, their sense of value, and so many more things that are hard to describe have been inflicted deeply on them. Hopefully they begin a long and painful process to healing. But sometimes the soul is the hardest to heal.
You may not think twice about sitting next to a stranger on a bus or train or standing in a crowd. But when you do that,you are in a sense trusting that stranger or strangers not to hurt you. A survivors a lot of times isn't able to. There's the panic, the doubt if they're safe, the "could this person hurt me","can I get away","how would I escape".And so many more thoughts can flash through their minds.
There are a thousand and one ways a survivor can be triggered and yet has to learn to deal with each one and work towards overcoming that trigger. There's the hard work of learning to trust those they love again yes many times they've lost the trust in them too. They've also lost trust in themselves, in their own judgment in the ability to keep themselves safe and they second guess every minute, every action. I could go on and on about the road to healing but for many it's a life long process. For those lucky enough to get extremely expensive help it's still a hard and life changing process. With time and hard work they begin to trust again those they love those that in a sense they're "safe" with but again it hard work. Some never make it, some only make it that far.

Now comes the woman that decides to make a tandem to celebrate the road to healing. She is now going to put her trust in a stranger mostly likely a guy that she met a few minutes before. She will be physically harnessed to him, she will be intimately close to him. Then she's in a plane, a confined space with no exit with people she may or may not know or have just met a minute before. Trusting them to not harm her just like she's placed trust in the TI. Then when it's time to jump she's given up even that tiny bit of control over the situation if she had decided to ride the plane down. Again a Huge step of trust that no one realizes. Each step in the tandem is a huge step of trust for a survivor.
Now the jump. That point where there is absolute freedom from thought and any control they may have had. They have given up everything and trusted a stranger to keep them safe and that trust wasn't misplaced. They've proven to themselves that they can and will overcome every thing that was stripped from them. That an ugliness no longer has even the tiniest hold on their lives. That's what a tandem can be to a survivor.
I know I've done a bad job of describing it all and repeated myself over several times but as usual my thoughts come a million miles an hour and I want to say so much but just don't know how.

Now you have the TI that is a sex offender that has ripped someone's world apart and yet it's ok for them to do tandems. And if this TI gets a survivor and doesn't have the decency to step aside and let another TI take the survivor? Afterall according to them they paid the price of what they did and it's in their past so hey" suck it up people and deal with it".
Plus, maybe they get a thrill out of having a woman legally in his control again. The thrill of mocking everything the woman has done to heal.
But that's his right for being "good" and hopefully changing or at the least not getting caught.

I know some will take this and advocate for the perps rights and all that. That's fine. I never said they couldn't skydive, I've just said they shouldn't be TI's is that really a lot to ask? I guess for some it is.

No matter how slowly you say oranges it never sounds like gullible.
Believe me I tried.

[LuckyMcSwervy 0]

Quote

basically in a short period of time that seems like it's lasted for hours all trust and feeling safe is ripped from them

You do realize sexual assault can happen over a period of time, like, YEARS, right?

Always be kinder than you feel.

[promise5 17]

Yes

No matter how slowly you say oranges it never sounds like gullible.
Believe me I tried.

[SivaGanesha 2]

I truly do "get" what you are saying about a tandem being an important milestone in a woman's recovery.

But I still feel that the key ingredient in providing positive, healing tandems of the type you describe is the human touch of a DZO who fosters an environment of respect for women--and not a query of a federal database. That is why I would still leave the final decision up to the DZO (and, of course, the decision of where/whether to jump at their DZ is up to the jumper).

Anyways you started this thread by asking people's opinions. I've stated mine and won't have anything more to say on this subject.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[Coreece 190]

LuckyMcSwervy

Quote

basically in a short period of time that seems like it's lasted for hours all trust and feeling safe is ripped from them

You do realize sexual assault can happen over a period of time, like, YEARS, right?

People should watch the movie "irreversible" THE 10 minutes will change your life forever...

Many people only hear about sexual assault on tv or in the paper, but they never get to feel it...this movie will make you feel it. I was fucked up for 2 weeks and never new what crying meant until I seen this foreign film...

Some could say, ya, oh well that movie was just extreme....But it will at least get you into the general mind of sexual predators and make you feel it, if only for a minute.

These women have to deal with it for the rest of their lives, even if not as violent....you'll get the point.

Trailer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU-ZOHeWLkU&feature=kp

The cinematography is hard to handle, but it's building a representation of the warped human mind that many of us never see...which is backwards and disorienting...so just go with it...

http://www.netflix.com/WiMovie/60026141?trkid=2361637

Edit:
If any student is so compelled to actually view this film, I just wanted to point out the amazing "long shot" from the beginning - all in one take - My apologies for taking a delight in the shadow of such aberrance...

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[LuckyMcSwervy 0]

Coreece

***

Quote

basically in a short period of time that seems like it's lasted for hours all trust and feeling safe is ripped from them

You do realize sexual assault can happen over a period of time, like, YEARS, right?

People should watch the movie "irreversible" THE 10 minutes will change your life forever...

Many people only hear about sexual assault on tv or in the paper, but they never get to feel it...this movie will make you feel it. I was fucked up for 2 weeks and never new what crying meant until I seen this foreign film...

Some could say, ya, oh well that movie was just extreme....But it will at least get you into the general mind of sexual predators and make you feel it, if only for a minute.

These women have to deal with it for the rest of their lives, even if not as violent....you'll get the point.

Trailer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU-ZOHeWLkU&feature=kp

The cinematography is hard to handle, but it's building a representation of the warped human mind that many of us never see...which is backwards and disorienting...so just go with it...

http://www.netflix.com/WiMovie/60026141?trkid=2361637

Edit:
If any student is so compelled to actually view this film, I just wanted to point out the amazing "long shot" from the beginning - all in one take - My apologies for taking a delight in the shadow of such aberrance...

I'm going to pass on clicking on the link. I'm sure it'll trigger some things within me I don't need to deal with right now. I just don't have the strength if it makes me backslide mentally.

Always be kinder than you feel.

[skygypsie 2]

*** And if this TI gets a survivor and doesn't have the decency to step aside and let another TI take the survivor? quote]
_______________________________________________

Understanding sexual abuse is intolerable & more than unfortunate to its victims !!!
Sexual predators / molesters are loathsome !!!

So with this statement you make, are you also suggesting waivers should include, or should students be required to divulge (or given the opportunity to) they are survivors of sexual molestation ?

Should this disclosure be made prior to scheduling, at some point throughout their pre jump course, while rigging up, so as they are assigned to the 'just right' TI, for both safety & security of the student, as well as, the TI ?

Would this disclosure be made procedurally (waiver), to be subjected to potential viewing by others, & subsequent sexual harassment accusation by the victim ?

Or would this disclosure be held privately between the student, DZO & TI's, so TI's would be given the opportunity to step up, or step aside out of decency to that particular student ?

What USPA standards would that 'custom' training & TI assignment fall under ?

Would that potentially be scrutinized as a sexual harassment violation, if the student didn't get a TI they were totally comfortable with ?

Would / should a TI also have to divulge he/she is also a survivor of sexual abuse or any other PTSD issue before he/she obtained their certification ?

Would / should a TI, or any instructor, packer, pilot (beyond a flight medical exam) have to be psychologically cleared before being considered as dz staff ?

Should students have to be psychologically cleared, or victims of abuse provide therapy reports upon notification they are survivors, as to ascertain they are of sound mind to make a skydive ?

If so, say good bye to skydiving !

Though it is a horrible ordeal to go through I'm sure, but given the already intense training a TI goes through to get their rating, in addition to the stress of taking students they are also not familiar with, trusting in them they follow their instructions & training, it seems they would also have to have 'psychotherapist' qualifications, as well...beyond the 15 min. to 1/2 hr. they spend with them, hoping to figure out their character, while training.

I am both empathetic & sympathetic to any victim of sexual abuse, or any individual suffering from other forms of abuse, physical, psychological, emotional, heart wrenching, soul tainting hardships & PTSD for countless other issues, in general.

I applaud those who challenge themselves in life to overcome; but specifically in response to this thread, to make a skydive.

However, with that being said, each 1st time tandem & all students will have their issues with their beginning skydives, let alone whatever "baggage" they bring on board, in their decision & CHOICE to make the skydive.

Can you imagine if all were expected a TI assignment was specifically hand chosen & assigned for each "special issue" ?

Do we then ask the USPA, or DZO's to screen &/or refrain from obtaining instructors or other staffers who may have any issues I mentioned above ?

If so, again I say...good bye to skydiving !

If you don't feel that would be warranted, then this would be somewhat biased to all other sufferers, or victims...wouldn't you agree ?!

This is not meant to be insensitive, but just looking at it from another angle (skydiving safety for all, for starters)....realistically it sounds to me someone suffering this traumatically, would have trust issues with any TI & is perhaps not quite ready to do another tandem jump.

Skydiving is therapeutic to many, but should those involved to make the skydive happen, now need be CERTIFIED pyschotherapists ?

Your debate seems to suggest the USPA, the DZO & the TI should be a choice of pure all, cure all 'therapy', for sexual abuse victims who CHOSE to do a tandem skydive.

Sorry, but I disagree with your thoughts the USPA, DZ-DZO should PROCEDURALLY be required to screen TI's.

A skydiving experience is offered to everyone, but IMO perhaps skydiving (tandems) are not for everyone, given the scenario you bring to topic !

I have actually witnessed & have great respect for instructors who have declined the most well intended student from doing a skydive, after every effort to establish they are 'getting it', has been exhausted.

* It is a general rule of thumb to all jumpers:

" if your head is not in it, don't jump until it is " !!!

** it is my experience most USPA dz's / dzo's obtain INDEPENDENT contractors as their staff

[promise5 17]

Some people are not worth responding to. But it did make me laughto see it

No matter how slowly you say oranges it never sounds like gullible.
Believe me I tried.