What's everyone's opinion on convicted and registered sex offenders being TI's?

[jclalor 12]

SivaGanesha

***That said, public pressure can cause a prosecutor to file charges.

True. However, I think in a lot of cases the plaintiff's attorney in a civil case would actually have a strong DISincentive to try to pressure a prosecutor to file criminal charges. The reason is that if criminal charges are filed, the defendant may well switch their priorities and their financial resources to defending the greater legal risk: the criminal case. This could leave the defendant unable to pay a civil settlement so the plaintiff's civil attorney won't get paid. Never a happy outcome for any attorney.

I'm sure one of the lawyers here will correct me if I'm wrong. I think the main reason plaintiffs lawyer would prefer a conviction in a criminal court before proeeding to a civil case, the criminal conviction can be used in a civil suit. However, if the defendant pleads "no contest" instead of "not guilty" in the criminal case, the conviction can't be used in a civil trial.

[AndyBoyd 0]

ryoder

***

Because you come on here as if you know something that we don't, yet provide nothing of substance to prove it.

If you don't have the time to explain your legal expertise, then maybe you should just sit on the sidelines like normal and just shut up.

Oh, for chrissake!
AndyBoyd already clearly explained in this thread: A citizen cannot hire an attorney to open a criminal case; Only a prosecutor can initiate an criminal case. Even after he explained it, Turtle insisted it could be done.

Thank you.

[AndyBoyd 0]

SivaGanesha

***That said, public pressure can cause a prosecutor to file charges.

True. However, I think in a lot of cases the plaintiff's attorney in a civil case would actually have a strong DISincentive to try to pressure a prosecutor to file criminal charges. The reason is that if criminal charges are filed, the defendant may well switch their priorities and their financial resources to defending the greater legal risk: the criminal case. This could leave the defendant unable to pay a civil settlement so the plaintiff's civil attorney won't get paid. Never a happy outcome for any attorney.

Right.

[billvon 2,990]

>Hopefully if someone like that is on the registry they would be able to appeal and
>get themselves off.

?? How would they appeal? There are only three ways I have heard of to get off the list:

Show that what you did is no longer a crime
Appeal the court decision and have it reversed
Action by the governor (effectively a pardon)

None of these are practical for most people.

Let's take a simple case. Guy in a frat gets drunk, four of them run across the quad naked during freshman orientation week. They get arrested. Court finds that:

1) they knew it was freshman week so there might be under-18 people there
2) they did it intentionally

Hence they exposed themselves to children. Hence they are sex crimes. They appeal the decision but it stands.

Is it still a crime? Yes, so the first option doesn't work.
Didn't win on appeal so second option is out
Governor is not going to pardon anything with the name "sex crime" in it so that's out.

So this guy is on the sex offender list. If that's all he did would I hire him as a TI if he were otherwise an excellent TI? Yes.

[promise5 17]

Not to be a smartbutt, but the guy really should have gotten a better lawyer.
But we could go back and forth with scenarios. Really I'm sorry for someone that gets on the national registry for that I really am. Hopefully they would understand that to keep the violent offenders and molesters off the TI certification he would have to not be certified either and throw himself into camera work or anything else.

It stinks I know but innocent people get hurt all the time and sometimes to stop the pervs, those that made just silly mistakes have to not be allowed to do something and will understand.

I'm still amazed at how many streakers and those that skier with their girlfriends are on the list. Dang and dang. No disrespect intended, but it seems to be the go to story.

No matter how slowly you say oranges it never sounds like gullible.
Believe me I tried.

[SivaGanesha 2]

promise5

It stinks I know but innocent people get hurt all the time and sometimes to stop the pervs, those that made just silly mistakes have to not be allowed to do something and will understand.

Sorry but I can't quite agree with this perspective. I do not think that the victims of one injustice should just keep quiet because it allegedly might help prevent another injustice. Moreover, I can't even agree that the scenario billvon described is a "stupid mistake". How can a university students possibly avoid being nude in front of minors? It's going to happen in the showers in the gym or dorm if nowhere else. Maybe those are the same sex but discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or gender is illegal.

Really it goes back to an ethical principle I learned in kindergarten and still believe in: two wrongs don't make a right. As an adult, of course I realize the world doesn't always work that way but I still feel it is an ideal worth striving for.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[quade 4]

I think you might be also looking at this from the point of view that you've come across the right solution to fix the problem. I don't think you have.

The problems are:

1) The legal definition of sex offender. If you don't like the "go to story," then remove that as an option by changing the definitions.

2) The legal ability of the really worse of the worst to hold job like this to begin with. Going after industries one-by-one seems sisyphean. Come up with a law that could be applied across the board to protect all teacher/coaching/working-with-the-public positions.

Remember, the USPA recommendations on anything aren't actually legally binding.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 2,990]

>Really I'm sorry for someone that gets on the national registry for that I really am.
>Hopefully they would understand that to keep the violent offenders and molesters
>off the TI certification he would have to not be certified either and throw himself
>into camera work or anything else.

>It stinks I know but innocent people get hurt all the time and sometimes to stop
>the pervs, those that made just silly mistakes have to not be allowed to do
>something and will understand.

You really think this (see below) is worth it? I don't think it is. I think this is a problem that needs to be solved - and one of the ways to do that is to treat people according to what they actually did rather than whether they are on a broken registry or not.

================
Teen kills self after streaking backlash

October 11, 2013

A teenager has committed suicide after he faced being put on a sex offenders list for streaking at a high school football game.

Christian Adamek, 15, from Hunstville, Alabama, hanged himself on October 2 and died two days later, AL.com reports.

Just one week earlier, he had been arrested by cops after running naked across the field during a high school football game on September 27. Under Alabama law, Christian faced being placed on the sex offenders register if found guilty of indecent exposure.
==================

[promise5 17]

I think there was a lot more going on in that poor teens life then just what happened in that news story.

Not to lesson anything but he "faced" it and it's sad that no one including his attorney could talk to him about what the actually possibility is of ending up on the registry and for how long. It's an all around sad situation.

But, like I said we could go back and forth.

What of the woman that decides a tandem is an amazing step towards to show that she's come so far in her healing and has begun to not let her being raped define her life.

She then is taken on a tandem by a sex offender.
She stated why she was doing her tandem and even recorded the tandem stating several times why she wanted to do this.
So either the DZ didn't know this person was in the registry or they didn't care.

No matter how slowly you say oranges it never sounds like gullible.
Believe me I tried.

[promise5 17]

But it would go beyond a recommendation if the USPA refused to certify them.

The problem with taking something out is the possibility of someone that has committed a more serious crime being able to plea bargain down to something like what would be excluded.

No matter how slowly you say oranges it never sounds like gullible.
Believe me I tried.

[promise5 17]

No you're right two wrongs don't make a right, but nothing is perfect and never will be.

It's coming up with the best possible solution and I don't think everyone will ever agree on what that is.

No matter how slowly you say oranges it never sounds like gullible.
Believe me I tried.

[quade 4]

promise5

But it would go beyond a recommendation if the USPA refused to certify them.

I think maybe you don't understand the relationship of the USPA to the laws of the US. It is certification of training and training only, not law enforcement issues outside of that.

For skydiving and skydiving ONLY, what you really want is to add a paragraph to this law that would say something about not being convicted of a serious sexual predator crime or something to that effect. Again, the definition of sex crime would also need to be revised or at the very least clarified for this.

http://www.gleim.com/aviation/faraim/?leafNum=105.45#avTab%3DleafNum%3D105.45

But that's actually kind of silly since you'd have to do that for every law in the land with regards to schools, coaching or working in a similar capacity like tennis coach or horse riding instructor.

What you'd really want is something all encompassing so you don't have to fight for a bajillion laws; just one.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[promise5 17]

So a person that wasn't certified or couldn't get certified is still able to do tandems ?

No matter how slowly you say oranges it never sounds like gullible.
Believe me I tried.

[quade 4]

promise5

So a person that wasn't certified or couldn't get certified is still able to do tandems ?

Read this carefully:

Quote

(iii) Holds a master parachute license issued by an organization recognized by the FAA, and

(iv) Has successfully completed a tandem instructor course given by the manufacturer of the tandem parachute system used in the parachute operation or a course acceptable to the Administrator.

(v) Has been certified by the appropriate parachute manufacturer or tandem course provider as being properly trained on the use of the specific tandem parachute system to be used.

Do you see the letters "USPA"?

As a practical matter, few DZs would hire them, but legally it's entirely possible without USPA certification.

What you really, really want is something legally binding.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[promise5 17]

Yes having it legally binding is ideal, but you've given me something new to look into. I still think it would be step in the right direction to start with the USPA and these others.

No matter how slowly you say oranges it never sounds like gullible.
Believe me I tried.

[riggerrob 643]

quade

***But, if they've been convicted of crimes I mentioned and must register then I don't think they should be instructors and that's something that should be researched before certification.

Emphasis mine.

By who? The Instructor of the candidate? The Tandem Examiner? The USPA Headquarters?

I think the ONLY person other than the sex offender that has any responsibility to protect the public is the "school" that hires him. The certification isn't the issue, it's the person's actual contact with the public.

..........................................................................

I disagree.
Tandem Examiners should refuse to train TI candidates who have been convicted of sexual offences.

A decade or so ago, an old Tandem Examiner told me that he refused to train a potential TI because the guy had spent time in jail for sex crimes. I never did hear all the details, but apparently the old TE had friends who worked in the criminal justice system who told him more than could be said in polite company.
All also heard some disturbing stories from another TI who had worked construction with the convict.
The convict also played some sneaky head games with me.

CSPA may have been willing to certify the convict as an IAD Instructor. Even though I have been a Strong TE for 6 years, the convict never asked me to train him. The answer would have been NO!
Thankfully, the convict has disappeared from the local skydiving scene.

[promise5 17]

Forgive me I didn't even think beyond the US. Thank you for reminding me.

No matter how slowly you say oranges it never sounds like gullible.
Believe me I tried.

[quade 4]

riggerrob

I disagree.
Tandem Examiners should refuse to train TI candidates who have been convicted of sexual offences.

How would they know? Are you expecting the examiners to also become private investigators?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[promise5 17]

They can run a simple search of the national registry

No matter how slowly you say oranges it never sounds like gullible.
Believe me I tried.

[normiss 798]

I had a supervisor at Motorola in Dallas years ago that was caught up in a swingers club raid.
Lewd and lascivious and a few other charges.
Even then, sex offender registry.

I don't understand that one.

[Amazon 7]

normiss

I had a supervisor at Motorola in Dallas years ago that was caught up in a swingers club raid.
Lewd and lascivious and a few other charges.
Even then, sex offender registry.

I don't understand that one.

Bible Belt and the local prosecutor and police chief and captain were not invited, bad decision???

Y'all gotta invite the right people to the sinning or you are screwed in the way you don't want to be.

[quade 4]

promise5

They can run a simple search of the national registry

I know people have said this before because you've even remarked about it as being the "go to story," but not everyone on the registry has committed a serious crime. So how, precisely, does the long-haired leaping gnome of a tandem examiner know the difference?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[promise5 17]

When doing the search you would come up with a person and then listed would be what they were convicted of or plea bargained down to. But, again there can be a BIG difference to what occurred and what the person got in a plea bargain.

No matter how slowly you say oranges it never sounds like gullible.
Believe me I tried.

[billvon 2,990]

>What of the woman that decides a tandem is an amazing step towards to show
>that she's come so far in her healing and has begun to not let her being raped
>define her life. She then is taken on a tandem by a sex offender.

If that sex offender was similar to this high school kid, then good for her - it could be a very positive experience for her.

Would you deny it to her because the one available TM went streaking on a high school football field once?

>So either the DZ didn't know this person was in the registry or they didn't care.

Or they knew the reason he was in it was bullshit.

[kelpdiver 2]

promise5

When doing the search you would come up with a person and then listed would be what they were convicted of or plea bargained down to. But, again there can be a BIG difference to what occurred and what the person got in a plea bargain.

it's clear that in your mind, they probably did more than they were actually convicted of. But it works both ways, and shows why DAs are prone to over charge.

Someone that is innocent (or guilty of a minor offense) yet being threatened with years in prison might choose to take the deal in order to avoid jail, to avoid bankrupting themselves, to move on. Some may find, or think wrongly at the time, that being labeled a sex offender is preferable to the risk of losing in trial. And they may be right - juries are no different than the people posting here, ones that forgot that Americans are presumed innocent.

Backinthesky asks what my stake in all this is? I believe in the Constitution and generally like to push back against rabid witch hunts where due process or presumption of innocence would be cast aside in the name of victims' rights.

Promise - it wasn't clear to me if you're talking about an actual instance or a hypothetical where a victim went skydiving and encountered a convicted sexual predator. Either way, it's not enough to warrant blackballing from the TI ranks anyone that has ever made a list. Your glib "he should a got a better lawyer" rationale doesn't cut it in this country.