American POW freed

[normiss 800]

I dunno...they wouldn't let me read the NDA!!!

[weekender 0]

propblast

***

Quote

BB deserted his post. He went to the enemy.

It's also possible that, for example, he stupidly wandered off by himself, not intending it to be permanent (which is the less serious offense of AWOL, not the more serious offense of desertion), and then got his ass captured before he could clear his head and get back to the right side of the wire* - which is not "going" to the enemy. Shades of grey, dude. Embrace them.

(*which is the scenario I'm increasingly thinking may be likely)

It is not possible. He left, in a combat zone. Off a combat base. By himself. You have to understand how soldiers are accounted for and work. It doesnt even pass a smell test.

I understand your want for him to be a freed POW. The fact of the matter is he wasnt.

I'm not a combat veteran but i am a veteran of the Army. alot of my buddies are combat vets and they were saying how they knew guys who just dropped their gear and wandered off. guys not right in the head at the time. one served in Iraq the other in Afghanistan and one in Vietnam. that surprised me and got me thinking about this kid and another i read about who crossed into North Korea years ago. sad confused men who made horrible mistakes and payed for it dearly.

maybe he was not right in the head. i'd like to see him tried for awol or desertion and then have him released with a dishonorable discharge. he seems to have been punished enough and im certain he has learned his lesson. also, he is a good example to other soldiers thinking it might be better to just walk away. he doesnt need to be jailed, IMO.

(edited typo's)

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[mirage62 0]

Quote

maybe he was not right in the head. i'd like to see him tried for awol or desertion and then have him released with a dishonorable discharge

I'm leaning this way....leave the "returning hero" for his home town if they must because I believe as of now, that he fucked up BIG time. He prob cost some men to die BUT lot's of young people make mistakes. 5 years captured is enough.

Reading that the military after a time knew of his location and chose not to go get him, thats sort of fucked up. OTOH would you want to risk your life for someone that you believe is a deserter?

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[BillyVance 34]

mirage62

***
would you want to risk your life for someone that you believe is a deserter?

Nope!

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[turtlespeed 220]

Bertt

1. American soldiers need to know that their country will do what it takes to get them home. That's worth a lot under any circumstances.
2. Congress can't do anything without attaching a bill to repeal Obamacare. Mitch McConnell is still trying to make Obama a one-term president. I've gotta cut the Administration some slack when it comes to notifying or working with Congress.
3. Obama has never shown negotiating skill or a particular reliance on facts, so it's entirely believable that his administration had all the facts and still made the decision they did.
4. Getting accused by the FBI (Richard Jewell, et. al.) is a lot different than getting accused by your own squad members.
5. The prisoners who were traded can make the Taliban marginally more effective. A drone strike can make them marginally less effective. Don't worry about it.
6. B's activities need to be investigated. We would all be better off if the news media and the administration would be guided more by facts and less by politics and opinions.

I know; that last sentence comes from a fantasy world. OK, gotta go feed the Unicorn. Carry on.

1 - Agreed with qualifiers - its the timing and resources they are willing to commit to get you home that should vary depending on the circumstances. BUT - how do you prove those circumstances before the rescue? Hmmm. Better to err on the side of caution.

2 - Rules are rules - someone is breaking the law if they don't follow the law.

3 - This may play into #1, so I'll reserve comments until later.

4 - If the FBI was there to witness the guy walking from his post . . . you might have a point. It seems there are witnesses from his squad.

5 - How long did we search for Bin Laden? HUGE resources were expended on that. Don't worry about it is a pretty juvenile way to look at something is serious.

6 - Again, I agree - but actually take steps to try to make that happen . . . and you will find yourself in a very interesting barrel.


The deaths of the soldiers trying to locate and retrieve him should absolutely be taken into consideration. If he is found to be AWOL or a Deserter, he should have the deaths of these soldiers on his head.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[turtlespeed 220]

weekender

******

Quote

BB deserted his post. He went to the enemy.

It's also possible that, for example, he stupidly wandered off by himself, not intending it to be permanent (which is the less serious offense of AWOL, not the more serious offense of desertion), and then got his ass captured before he could clear his head and get back to the right side of the wire* - which is not "going" to the enemy. Shades of grey, dude. Embrace them.

(*which is the scenario I'm increasingly thinking may be likely)

It is not possible. He left, in a combat zone. Off a combat base. By himself. You have to understand how soldiers are accounted for and work. It doesnt even pass a smell test.

I understand your want for him to be a freed POW. The fact of the matter is he wasnt.

I'm not a combat veteran but i am a veteran of the Army. alot of my buddies are combat vets and they were saying how they knew guys who just dropped their gear and wandered off. guys not right in the head at the time. one served in Iraq the other in Afghanistan and one in Vietnam. that surprised me and got me thinking about this kid and another i read about who crossed into North Korea years ago. sad confused men who made horrible mistakes and payed for it dearly.

maybe he was not right in the head. i'd like to see him tried for awol or desertion and then have him released with a dishonorable discharge. he seems to have been punished enough and im certain he has learned his lesson. also, he is a good example to other soldiers thinking it might be better to just walk away. he doesnt need to be jailed, IMO.

(edited typo's)

What about the men that died trying to retrieve him?

Seems a pretty light sentence for someone that indirectly caused the death of so many.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[regulator 0]

I agree with what you said. He should be tried under UCMJ code and dishonorably discharged. Here is a cnn video of a man claiming to have been in the same unit as bergdahl.

http://youngcons.com/soldier-who-served-with-bergdahl-hes-at-best-a-deserter-and-at-worst-a/

[Channman 2]

normiss

Too fast?
Search deeper.

They've been saying this from day 1.

Hell the DUDE even left a letter on his bunk explaining why he was leaving. This man, should be held accountable as a deserter and placed behind bars. If it comes out that he was training our enemies how to make bombs and execute ambushes then maybe even a charge of treason. But then again, if faced with the possibility of have thy head removed with a dull knife we could just consider additional jail time.

[mirage62 0]

From the Washington Times:

"WASHINGTON — Sometime after midnight on June 30, 2009, Pfc. Bowe Bergdahl left behind a note in his tent saying he had become disillusioned with the Army, did not support the American mission in Afghanistan and was leaving to start a new life. He slipped off the remote military outpost in Paktika Province on the border with Pakistan and took with him a soft backpack, water, knives, a notebook and writing materials, but left behind his body armor and weapons — startling, given the hostile environment around his outpost.
That account, provided by a former senior military officer briefed on the investigation into the private’s disappearance, is part of a more complicated picture emerging of the capture of a soldier whose five..."

I'm thinking that he wasn't just out trying to clear his head....

So question: Given that you know team Obama would have known all this, was the trade straight up because Obama believed it was the right thing to do?

I'm thinking, yes. Given what the facts seem to be it was a safe bet that Obama knew this would be really unpopular with a lot of people (left and right) Certainly it would stir up the far left...in a positive manner but middle left...I don't get it.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[jakee 1,489]

propblast

***Right. So you have zero non circumstantial evidence.

Intellectual honesty is acknowledging the difference between reasonable suspicion (which it seems to be) and proof (which it isn't, pending further investigation).

The proof exists. Do you think every member of his unit is lying?

Do you have statements from every member of his unit claiming that he deserted?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Channman 2]

regulator

I agree with what you said. He should be tried under UCMJ code and dishonorably discharged. Here is a cnn video of a man claiming to have been in the same unit as bergdahl.

http://youngcons.com/soldier-who-served-with-bergdahl-hes-at-best-a-deserter-and-at-worst-a/

And there is this...a bit long but I think it covers most of the discussion.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2646787/He-face-court-martial-desertion-Two-former-Bowe-Bergdahl-platoon-mates-say-thousands-danger-abandoned-Army-post.html

[propblast 0]

Andy9o8

I have no such "want". I understand your "want" for everyone who doesn't agree with you to be painted with that "agenda"; it's standard "us-vs.-them" politics-think. Fact is, I'm simply thinking this through like a lawyer.

You couldnt be further from the truth.

Just like you look at this as a lawyer.

I look at this as someone who has expierence with UCMJ.

You cant throw your expierence out and just tell everyone thiers means nothing.

By the way what was BB classified as during his 5 years out there in the wild?

Have a wonderful day.

Propblast

[jclalor 12]

mirage62

From the Washington Times:

"WASHINGTON — Sometime after midnight on June 30, 2009, Pfc. Bowe Bergdahl left behind a note in his tent saying he had become disillusioned with the Army, did not support the American mission in Afghanistan and was leaving to start a new life. He slipped off the remote military outpost in Paktika Province on the border with Pakistan and took with him a soft backpack, water, knives, a notebook and writing materials, but left behind his body armor and weapons — startling, given the hostile environment around his outpost.
That account, provided by a former senior military officer briefed on the investigation into the private’s disappearance, is part of a more complicated picture emerging of the capture of a soldier whose five..."

I'm thinking that he wasn't just out trying to clear his head....

So question: Given that you know team Obama would have known all this, was the trade straight up because Obama believed it was the right thing to do?

I'm thinking, yes. Given what the facts seem to be it was a safe bet that Obama knew this would be really unpopular with a lot of people (left and right) Certainly it would stir up the far left...in a positive manner but middle left...I don't get it.

Most likely no one will ever know the full details about the prisoner swap. I wouldn't be surprised if it involved many different aspects of the draw down of troops over the next 2 years. Not wanting to leave anyone behind, despite how they ened up being captured, is an important part of putting this war to an end.

WTBS, I'm sure Obama knew the full details of his capture, and this is where OBama's going to have problems. If a 100% bona fide POW was released, he'd be able to ride out the heat about the 5 Taliban being released. With the dad, wearing a zealot beard, speaking Pashtun in the WH to his son, and Obama moon walking in the background, I got a bad feeling about this one.

Obama should have delayed the WH celebration until all the facts come out.

This could really fuck the Dems in 2016 and 2018

[weekender 0]

What about the men that died trying to retrieve him?

Seems a pretty light sentence for someone that indirectly caused the death of so many.




We do not know what is true yet. if he was not right in the head and wandered off, im going to be a bit sympathetic to him. if its proven he hated America and went off to join the Taliban, i will be far less sympathetic. i would be fine with him being executed for that.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[jakee 1,489]

Quote

By the way what was BB classified as during his 5 years out there in the wild?

Missing/captured. Point being?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[RonD1120 62]

jclalor

This could really fuck the Dems in 2016 and 2018

Added to my prayer list.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[normiss 800]

The difference is, to the outside anyway, it's not a contract.
There is no quit. At least not until your current enlistment is up.
He took the oath.

[Amazon 7]

mirage62

From the Washington Times:

"WASHINGTON — Sometime after midnight on June 30, 2009, Pfc. Bowe Bergdahl left behind a note in his tent saying he had become disillusioned with the Army, did not support the American mission in Afghanistan and was leaving to start a new life. He slipped off the remote military outpost in Paktika Province on the border with Pakistan and took with him a soft backpack, water, knives, a notebook and writing materials, but left behind his body armor and weapons — startling, given the hostile environment around his outpost.
That account, provided by a former senior military officer briefed on the investigation into the private’s disappearance, is part of a more complicated picture emerging of the capture of a soldier whose five..."

I'm thinking that he wasn't just out trying to clear his head....

So question: Given that you know team Obama would have known all this, was the trade straight up because Obama believed it was the right thing to do?

I'm thinking, yes. Given what the facts seem to be it was a safe bet that Obama knew this would be really unpopular with a lot of people (left and right) Certainly it would stir up the far left...in a positive manner but middle left...I don't get it.

Never forget that no matter how much of a douche this guy might have been to his unit... he is OUR douche... an American in harms way.

I have also seen where the supposedly 5 or 6 dead GI's searching for him is far from the whole story... I am sure that timing of a couple months AFTER he was already long gone will be looked at closely.

[RonD1120 62]

Today's official response from DOD:

Statement by Secretary of the Army John McHugh on Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[billvon 2,991]

>I've never seen a report that proved Kerry innocent.

Here in America we presume people are innocent. We have to prove they are guilty, not innocent.

[RonD1120 62]

billvon

>I've never seen a report that proved Kerry innocent.

Here in America we presume people are innocent. We have to prove they are guilty, not innocent.

Golly billvon, you just keep making yourself look uniformed. Presumption of innocence is in criminal law not in the military's honor system. Many in Vietnam served to "get their tickets punched." Kerry was one of them. Nothing would have ever been said if he not not come back and lied to Congress about other combat soldiers. Even then it did not come to light until he ran for president. He is a suck ass. But, like I said above, he played it well.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[winsor 236]

billvon

>I've never seen a report that proved Kerry innocent.

Here in America we presume people are innocent. We have to prove they are guilty, not innocent.

That has not been my experience.

[propblast 0]

Iago

So, I don't have military experience and won't comment on the 'deserter/traitor/court marshal' angle.What I can comment on is just how it looks to a regular guy on the outside.

What I see is a guy who started in the service and presumably went through at least a few promotion cycles and got a few notches up the ladder. Maybe he had a CO that torpedoed him on a fit rep, got passed over, or was just disillusioned with the changes over the years.

In any case, I see just a disgruntled, disengaged guy that wanted out. Rather than finish his contract, he decided to just leave instead and got snatched. I don't buy a lot of this conspiracy stuff that he went looking for the Taliban to part of a secret op to get these guys out of Gitmo. Or that Obama is a Taliban sleeper cell and set this whole thing up. Or these other strange things I'm reading on the net or hearing on the radio.

I mean really, some of this stuff is totally wacked out.

Time will tell if setting the precedent of negotiating with bad people is a good idea or not.

He didnt go through any promotion cycles....until he walked away.

Propblast

[Amazon 7]

Poor John McCain.... he should know better having been a POW...

He was against the trade in 2012... then he was for the BB release before he was against it. again. But he is not alone.. Fro it before she was against it was Sen Ayotte... Maybe we should have traded them

What did the usual tools say when Kerry changed his opinion???? I forget.. well not really.

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/mccains-reversals-bowe-bergdahl

But all things considered, these conflicting statements are mild compared to Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) and his recent reversals, highlighted today by Doug Mataconis.

(AGAINST_FLIP)
The Arizona senator, himself a former prisoner of war, initially balked at the idea of a prisoner swap, calling the idea in 2012 “bizarre.”

(FOR_FLOP)
A few months ago, however, McCain changed his mind.

U.S. Army Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl has been held by a group with ties to the Taliban for almost four years, and the group has demanded the United States release five Taliban prisoners in exchange for him.

The Washington Post reported that U.S. officials confirmed that talks among diplomats and the Pentagon were under way. The official U.S. policy is not to negotiate with terrorists, but the military is winding down operations there by the end of the year and could risk leaving Bergdahl behind, CNN noted.

McCain said his stance has changed only because the previous proposal was to release five “hard-core” Taliban leaders as a “confidence-building measure.” The current proposal would be an actual exchange of prisoners. “I would be inclined to support such a thing, depending on a lot of details,” he said.

Update: Asked specifically by CNN’s Anderson Cooper about the prospect of a 5-for-1 prisoner exchange, McCain replied, “I would support. Obviously I’d have to know the details, but I would support ways of bringing him home, and if exchange was one of them, I think that would be something I think we should seriously consider.”

That was in February.

(AGAINST_FLIP)
McCain appears to have change course again after the Bergdahl announcement was made over the weekend.


While McCain, himself a former prisoner of war, said he was “pleased” by Bergdahl’s release in a Saturday statement, he sounded a more ambivalent note on Face the Nation the following day.

“It is disturbing that these individuals would have the ability to re-enter the fight, and they are big, high-level people, possibly responsibly for the deaths of thousands,” he said.

As best as I can tell, McCain has not explained why he was “inclined to support” the same deal the Obama administration actually struck, which the senator is no longer inclined to support.
(FOR_FLOP)
Update: Yesterday, McCain suggested that it’s best not to dwell on the prisoner-swap decision. “It’s worthy of a hearing, but it’s done,” he said.
(AGAINST_FLIP)
Today, McCain adopted a different posture, telling reporters, “This decision to bring Sgt. Bergdahl home – and we applaud that he is home – is ill-founded … it is a mistake, and it is putting the lives of American servicemen and women at risk. And that to me is unacceptable.”

[JerryBaumchen 1,363]

Hi Iago,

Quote

It's been the hot topic on conservative radio since it happened and every day the callers just get weirder.

And did you expect anything else?



JerryBaumchen