Score one for gun owners

[SkyDekker 1,465]

kelpdiver

***

Quote

Do they come from the same place as legal cocaine? Or heroin?

Most cocaine and heroin is manufactured illegally.

Are you contending a sizeable group of guns in circulation were manufactured illegally?

guns that are smuggled in with drug shipments from outside US borders were never "legal."

Maybe not legal in the US, but from your statement you can't conclude the gun wasn't legallly manufactured in the first place.

[masterrig 1]

BillyVance

I know that I refuse to live in an area where your name and address gets published as a gun-owner, thereby making MY home a target, like a certain area of NY...

If some asshole wants my guns, they're going to have to be real fast. Response time is less than a minute, and they will not be able to disengage my wireless ADT alarm.

You want my guns? FUCK YOU! Try and get them.

Yeah, Buddy!!


Chuck

[regulator 0]

SkyDekker

Quote

Do they come from the same place as legal cocaine? Or heroin?

Most cocaine and heroin is manufactured illegally.

Are you contending a sizeable group of guns in circulation were manufactured illegally?

No hes saying gun control is so stupid it should be illagal.

[kallend 2,027]

BIGUN

The hundreds of thousands you talk about are... the ~200,000 weapons that are stolen.

Correct. It's more like 250,000 EACH YEAR. That a whole lot of legal gun owners who are doing a piss-poor job of safeguarding their lethal weapons.

IMO if you own a gun you are obliged to safeguard it from criminals. Leaving it in a gun rack in the back window of your truck is gross negligence.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,027]

BIGUN

The DoJ does not maintain statistics on the legality of weapons; that is the ATF's job. The DoJ collects, analyzes, publishes, and disseminate information on crime, criminal offenders, and victims of crime.

I think it a very fair assumption that a gun that is STOLEN falls into the hands of a criminal, who therefore possesses the gun illegally.

I find it hard to believe that a stolen gun in the hands of the thief somehow remains "legal".

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[freethefly 6]

DiverMike

Quote

The criminal classes are being armed by legal gun owners.

That is a stretch. The primary definition of being armed is to be furnished with weapons. Legal gun owners are not furnishing anything (definition: to supply or give something to someone or something).

I would agree that the criminal class is arming itself by stealing from law abiding citizens, but legal gun owners are definitely not arming the criminals.

You are wrong. Only 10 to 15% of guns that are used in crimes are stolen. The number one source is through straw purchase, according to the ATF. Next to that comes through legal gun dealers (FFL holders) who are more than willing to pass them on for a larger profit. So, it is entirely true that legal gun owners are, in fact, arming criminals.

Google the statistics.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[kelpdiver 2]

SkyDekker

Maybe not legal in the US, but from your statement you can't conclude the gun wasn't legallly manufactured in the first place.

it's a pointless distinction to make. If the claim is that legal gun owners are arming criminals, but in reality the crooks are getting the bulk of their weapons via illegal purchase methods or from foreign lands, then summarizing it all as legal guns is simply deceitful. Which is exactly how to describe kallend's point.

[jtiflyer 0]

kallend

***

The hundreds of thousands you talk about are... the ~200,000 weapons that are stolen.

Correct. It's more like 250,000 EACH YEAR. That a whole lot of legal gun owners who are doing a piss-poor job of safeguarding their lethal weapons.

IMO if you own a gun you are obliged to safeguard it from criminals. Leaving it in a gun rack in the back window of your truck is gross negligence.

I would like to see the statistics of automobiles stolen in the US. Stolen vehicles that are then used as a tool to commit crime, or used as a joyride that then ends in damage to property or injury/death. Are owners of a vehicle that is used in a crime held liable for what somebody else does in or with said vehicle? All this talk about how guns are "evil tools of death and destruction", but nobody says the same thing about cars?

[ibx 2]

Quote

All this talk about how guns are "evil tools of death and destruction", but nobody says the same thing about cars?

The primary function of cars is transportation, the primary function of guns is to kill things. If you do not see the difference you are beyond redemption.

[Backintothesky 0]

If we're getting into semantics - actually the primary function of a gun is to propel projectiles over a distance. What you shoot at is entirely a personal choice. You can choose to use it to kill, much like you can choose to use a car to kill.

For example, a .22 competition rifle (such as seen in the biathlon) is not produced to kill anything in the slightest - it is designed and manufactured to shoot at targets in a sport. Can it be used to kill? Absolutely. Is that its primary purpose. No.

ibx

Quote

All this talk about how guns are "evil tools of death and destruction", but nobody says the same thing about cars?

The primary function of cars is transportation, the primary function of guns is to kill things. If you do not see the difference you are beyond redemption.

[tkhayes 348]

Quote

If we're getting into semantics -

kettle, meet pot

Most guns in the USA are designed to kill things. the statement was correct in the start. 114M handguns. almost everyone one of them has a stated purpose of being a weapon.

All guns made in the USA and then sold are 'legal' to start with. Part of the 'gun control' solution has little to do with 'taking your guns away' or 'banning them', but it certainly has a lot to do with following the chain of custody of guns and how they end up in the hands of criminals. Too bad the NRA tries to block any legislation that makes any attempt to improve that situation. And thus nothing changes.

So you are equally correct when you state that criminals can easily get guns. Of course they can, because we make no effort to stop it.

[TriGirl 319]

BillyVance

You want my guns? FUCK YOU! Try and get them.

From a list of "rules of a gunfight," that I no longer know where to find in my files:

-If someone kills you with your own weapon, it had better be because he beat you to death with it, since you ran out of ammunition.

ETA: found it! Number 10.
"10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty."

rules for a gunfight

See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

[freethefly 6]

Backintothesky

If we're getting into semantics - actually the primary function of a gun is to propel projectiles over a distance. What you shoot at is entirely a personal choice. You can choose to use it to kill, much like you can choose to use a car to kill.

For example, a .22 competition rifle (such as seen in the biathlon) is not produced to kill anything in the slightest - it is designed and manufactured to shoot at targets in a sport. Can it be used to kill? Absolutely. Is that its primary purpose. No.



***

Quote

All this talk about how guns are "evil tools of death and destruction", but nobody says the same thing about cars?

The primary function of cars is transportation, the primary function of guns is to kill things. If you do not see the difference you are beyond redemption.

Guns were originally designed to kill people. They were far more efficient and eventually replaced the arrow on the battle fields of Europe. The Indian tribes in America learned that this was true as they were being slaughtered by the troops of the Federal government.
http://www.talonsite.com/tlineframe.htm

It is not difficult to do a little research before posting.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[rushmc 23]

ibx

Quote

All this talk about how guns are "evil tools of death and destruction", but nobody says the same thing about cars?

The primary function of cars is transportation, the primary function of guns is to kill things. If you do not see the difference you are beyond redemption.

Actually, the primary use of guns in the US is for target and compitition shooting

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Backintothesky 0]

Purposes change over time and circumstances.

A sword was originally designed to kill people. Swords aren't created today to kill people except for some that are used in certain countries to behead people. Circumstances and time have changed that purpose.

Granted yes, firearms were created to kill people originally BUT the average civilian user of a firearm isn't buying or using it to kill someone. The purpose has changed.

In the country I live (France), unless you have a hunting permit or a very difficult to come by CCW licence (reserved for persons at risk like judges, jewellers etc.) you can only purchase firearms for target shooting.

I can buy an AK-47 but I can only use it for target shooting and it is semi auto only. That gun's primary purpose is putting holes in paper (round and not human shaped cos that's forbidden too) targets.

If someone attacks me in my home and I happen to have access to my weapon I can use it to defend myself if I am facing lethal force (same as any country in the Western world - legal firearms owners can do the same in the UK).

But that is not its primary purpose in the country I live and in the time I live in.

freethefly

***If we're getting into semantics - actually the primary function of a gun is to propel projectiles over a distance. What you shoot at is entirely a personal choice. You can choose to use it to kill, much like you can choose to use a car to kill.

For example, a .22 competition rifle (such as seen in the biathlon) is not produced to kill anything in the slightest - it is designed and manufactured to shoot at targets in a sport. Can it be used to kill? Absolutely. Is that its primary purpose. No.



***

Quote

All this talk about how guns are "evil tools of death and destruction", but nobody says the same thing about cars?

The primary function of cars is transportation, the primary function of guns is to kill things. If you do not see the difference you are beyond redemption.

Guns were originally designed to kill people. They were far more efficient and eventually replaced the arrow on the battle fields of Europe. The Indian tribes in America learned that this was true as they were being slaughtered by the troops of the Federal government.
http://www.talonsite.com/tlineframe.htm

It is not difficult to do a little research before posting.

[kallend 2,027]

kelpdiver

***
Maybe not legal in the US, but from your statement you can't conclude the gun wasn't legallly manufactured in the first place.

it's a pointless distinction to make. If the claim is that legal gun owners are arming criminals, but in reality the crooks are getting the bulk of their weapons via illegal purchase methods or from foreign lands, then summarizing it all as legal guns is simply deceitful. Which is exactly how to describe kallend's point.

Nonsense.

How many guns are manufactured illegally? Almost none. The guns start out legal, and by one method or another get transferred from a legal owner to a criminal.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[freethefly 6]

Backintothesky

Purposes change over time and circumstances.

A sword was originally designed to kill people. Swords aren't created today to kill people except for some that are used in certain countries to behead people. Circumstances and time have changed that purpose.

Granted yes, firearms were created to kill people originally BUT the average civilian user of a firearm isn't buying or using it to kill someone. The purpose has changed.

In the country I live (France), unless you have a hunting permit or a very difficult to come by CCW licence (reserved for persons at risk like judges, jewellers etc.) you can only purchase firearms for target shooting.

I can buy an AK-47 but I can only use it for target shooting and it is semi auto only. That gun's primary purpose is putting holes in paper (round and not human shaped cos that's forbidden too) targets.

If someone attacks me in my home and I happen to have access to my weapon I can use it to defend myself if I am facing lethal force (same as any country in the Western world - legal firearms owners can do the same in the UK).

But that is not its primary purpose in the country I live and in the time I live in.

******If we're getting into semantics - actually the primary function of a gun is to propel projectiles over a distance. What you shoot at is entirely a personal choice. You can choose to use it to kill, much like you can choose to use a car to kill.

For example, a .22 competition rifle (such as seen in the biathlon) is not produced to kill anything in the slightest - it is designed and manufactured to shoot at targets in a sport. Can it be used to kill? Absolutely. Is that its primary purpose. No.



***

Quote

All this talk about how guns are "evil tools of death and destruction", but nobody says the same thing about cars?

The primary function of cars is transportation, the primary function of guns is to kill things. If you do not see the difference you are beyond redemption.

Guns were originally designed to kill people. They were far more efficient and eventually replaced the arrow on the battle fields of Europe. The Indian tribes in America learned that this was true as they were being slaughtered by the troops of the Federal government.
http://www.talonsite.com/tlineframe.htm

It is not difficult to do a little research before posting.

Point taken.

My 30.06 is used primarily to kill deer. Same as yourself, if someone were to come into my house to do harm...

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[SkyDekker 1,465]

kelpdiver

***
Maybe not legal in the US, but from your statement you can't conclude the gun wasn't legallly manufactured in the first place.

it's a pointless distinction to make. If the claim is that legal gun owners are arming criminals, but in reality the crooks are getting the bulk of their weapons via illegal purchase methods or from foreign lands, then summarizing it all as legal guns is simply deceitful. Which is exactly how to describe kallend's point.


lol, It doesn't help your position to try and twist and turn out of statements which are simply true. Most guns are manufactured legally and then find their way to the illegal market.

Most cocaine and heroin is manufactured illegally and stays on the illegal market.

Trying to argue out of that simple fact just weakens the rest of your arguments. (so please keep doing it )

[SkyDekker 1,465]

regulator

***

Quote

Do they come from the same place as legal cocaine? Or heroin?

Most cocaine and heroin is manufactured illegally.

Are you contending a sizeable group of guns in circulation were manufactured illegally?

No hes saying gun control is so stupid it should be illagal.

Other than ome light chuckling at the irony.....

It would seem that people in countries with stricter gun control tend to have a lower tendency to go on homocidal rages.

[Backintothesky 0]

Really?

China has some of the strictest gun laws in the world.

Yet his is a regular occurance in China on a par with gun attacks in USA:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/21/china-knife-attack_n_5362413.html

"But imagine if they had guns"

Err this knife attack below dwarfs most gun attack body counts:

http://news.yahoo.com/separatists-blamed-china-knife-attack-33-dead-134410685.html

Banning guns doesn't help - murderous people will ALWAYS find a way.

You can't ban knifes.

SkyDekker

******

Quote

Do they come from the same place as legal cocaine? Or heroin?

Most cocaine and heroin is manufactured illegally.

Are you contending a sizeable group of guns in circulation were manufactured illegally?

No hes saying gun control is so stupid it should be illagal.

Other than ome light chuckling at the irony.....

It would seem that people in countries with stricter gun control tend to have a lower tendency to go on homocidal rages.

[rehmwa 2]

Backintothesky

In the country I live (France), unless you have a hunting permit or a very difficult to come by CCW licence (reserved for persons at risk like judges, jewellers etc.)

this is distressing that some pigs are more equal than others

I prefer a system where every citizen has the same rights and opportunities to responsibly own property of their choice. Also one where each citizen gets to choose for themselves what level of risk their live entails.

the less big brother, the better

Quote

you can only purchase firearms for target shooting.

This is simply a feel good policy, IMO. So all a person has to do is lie and say the firearm is only for target shooting. That's just great. Apparently the firearm has a scanner and malfunctions at anything other than paper?

(edit: bittsky...I'd like you to read this post with a wry and sarcastic humor tone, it ties to some ribbing I'm doing in a few other posts....you make your points just fine)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Backintothesky 0]

Yep CCW is for people who, as part of their job, face people who might do them harm.

It's a probabilities based thing. If I own a jewelers for example then I will probably be robbed at gunpoint at some time or another, so I'm allowed a weapon for self defence in that store.

You can bet your ass that politicians are allowed CCW.

Re. target shooting. Yes, you can lie. You need to actually belong to a gun club and make a minimum number of visits a year to keep your rights. You need at least 6 months as part of that club to buy more than .22.

There's non of this FAC shit like in the UK where you have to have a cop visit your home and check that you are storing your guns correctly etc.

You can also pick up black powder rifles and revolvers once you are over 18 and have a piece of ID on you. No need to belong to a gun club or anything. I guess the logic is that no-one will use them in a killing spree.

Hunting licence is easy to get - just need to pass a test. The benefit of this is you don't need to keep going to the gun club to keep your licence.

rehmwa

***In the country I live (France), unless you have a hunting permit or a very difficult to come by CCW licence (reserved for persons at risk like judges, jewellers etc.)

this is distressing that some pigs are more equal than others

I prefer a system where every citizen has the same rights and opportunities to responsibly own property of their choice. Also one where each citizen gets to choose for themselves what level of risk their live entails.

the less big brother, the better

Quote

you can only purchase firearms for target shooting.

This is simply a feel good policy, IMO. So all a person has to do is lie and say the firearm is only for target shooting. That's just great. Apparently the firearm has a scanner and malfunctions at anything other than paper?

[rehmwa 2]

Backintothesky

You need to actually belong to a gun club and make a minimum number of visits a year to keep your rights. You need at least 6 months as part of that club to buy more than .22.

This is still quite restrictive, but it's about the closest thing I've heard of that matches what I'd LIKE to see happen everywhere. (But voluntarily as an individual choice).

Owners need to be proficient in use, storage, cleaning, maintenance, safety,,,,,,,,,

Used to be we learned it from our parents. And learned it well as part of the culture.

Today, (urban areas), I wouldn't want most parents to own scissors........



as for who "gets" to be "given" a right - of course politicians get to have and do whatever they want - they are always "more equal" than the rest of us in their minds. THAT's the big problem.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[BillyVance 34]

Quote

Banning guns doesn't help - murderous people will ALWAYS find a way.

This.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[Backintothesky 0]

Yep I think it is quite a good system. There's a police background check when you join and the president and others in the club need to approve you.

rehmwa

***You need to actually belong to a gun club and make a minimum number of visits a year to keep your rights. You need at least 6 months as part of that club to buy more than .22.

This is still quite restrictive, but it's about the closest thing I've heard of that matches what I'd LIKE to see happen everywhere. (But voluntarily as an individual choice).

Owners need to be proficient in use, storage, cleaning, maintenance, safety,,,,,,,,,

Used to be we learned it from our parents. And learned it well as part of the culture.

Today, (urban areas), I wouldn't want most parents to own scissors........



as for who "gets" to be "given" a right - of course politicians get to have and do whatever they want - they are always "more equal" than the rest of us in their minds. THAT's the big problem.