Uncle Sam needs a few old men

[ryoder 1,590]

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2014/07/10/selective_service_sends_draft_reminders_to_people_born_in_19th_century.html

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[ZippyZ 0]

I wonder how many kids know that when they get their driver's license, their government is also signing them up for the draft?

[Krip 2]

Actually I'm surprised their doing that crap.

Picked up a brochure at the post office about the responsibility of every one in a certain age group having to sign up for the draft.

Immediately noticed it had a gender bias, it only required dude's to register.

Funny shit.

One Jump Wonder

[ZippyZ 0]

Krip

Immediately noticed it had a gender bias, it only required dude's to register.

Yeah, the women love to have "equal rights" to serve, as long as they can't be forced to do it like the men. Which means it's not really "equal", after all. They ought to take the whole package deal to be equal, and not just the part they like.

[wmw999 2,447]

Um not all women. Either no one or everyone should be subject. Preferably a year of public service rather than specifically military.

And I've felt this way since I was 17. With rights come responsibilities.

Now to get back to the bonfire: that means drafting boobies

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[quade 4]

wmw999

Either no one or everyone should be subject.

I waffle on this because no matter how the system is designed it will be massively unfair and if anyone ever wanted to bitch about socialism, this would be the program to facilitate it.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Amazon 7]

wmw999

Um not all women. Either no one or everyone should be subject. Preferably a year of public service rather than specifically military.

And I've felt this way since I was 17. With rights come responsibilities.

Now to get back to the bonfire: that means drafting boobies

Wendy P.

+1

That also belies the large numbers of women who have served.. lest some forget that more women would have served in more roles had that discrimination been removed long ago.

[Andy9o8 2]

Simply put, I have always felt, and still do, that legal liability for actual or potential military conscription should be gender-neutral. The 3 of us are about the same age, so you understand how my thinking is influenced by having grown up in the US during the Vietnam war era.

[ryoder 1,590]

Yeah, come on all of you, big strong men,
Uncle Sam needs your help again.
He's got himself in a terrible jam
Way down yonder in Vietnam...

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Amazon 7]

Andy9o8

Simply put, I have always felt, and still do, that legal liability for actual or potential military conscription should be gender-neutral. The 3 of us are about the same age, so you understand how my thinking is influenced by having grown up in the US during the Vietnam war era.

I know all too well. I enlisted in 1971 I had lost friends and family who had been conscripted.

I have taken huge amounts of shit for my view that EVERYONE, regardless of gender, should serve their country for two years and then be given 2 years of college free of charge afterwards as part of that service. I don't care if you are the child of wealth or a child of poverty.
It would serve this country quite well to instill a common set of values for all citizens.

[quade 4]

Amazon

... regardless of gender, should serve their country for two years and then be given 2 years of college free of charge afterwards as part of that service. I don't care if you are the child of wealth or a child of poverty.
It would serve this country quite well to instill a commen set of values for all citizens.

I'd be all for a system that trades civil service for a college education, but it's the mandatory part I can't really support. I'm not trying to give anyone shit about it, but you can't say we live in a free country if mandatory service exists.

As for instilling a "common set of values for all citizens," that's what public school is partly about. That's why they taught civics and history and require the Pledge of Allegiance. And if that's NOT instilled by 18 by that subtle indoctrination, it sure as hell isn't going to drill in any further afterward by anything other than a boot to the head in, um, bootcamp brainwashing. So yeah, while that heroic sense of pride and whatnot can be laid down in the military, you're just not going to get that "instilled" in anything less.

NOR SHOULD WE WANT TO.

That is the path to all sorts of science fiction, dystopian society, Orwellian, socialist horrors.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Amazon 7]

quade

***... regardless of gender, should serve their country for two years and then be given 2 years of college free of charge afterwards as part of that service. I don't care if you are the child of wealth or a child of poverty.
It would serve this country quite well to instill a commen set of values for all citizens.

I'd be all for a system that trades civil service for a college education, but it's the mandatory part I can't really support. I'm not trying to give anyone shit about it, but you can't say we live in a free country if mandatory service exists.

As for instilling a "common set of values for all citizens," that's what public school is partly about. That's why they taught civics and history and require the Pledge of Allegiance. And if that's NOT instilled by 18 by that subtle indoctrination, it sure as hell isn't going to drill in any further afterward by anything other than a boot to the head in, um, bootcamp brainwashing. So yeah, while that heroic sense of pride and whatnot can be laid down in the military, you're just not going to get that "instilled" in anything less.

NOR SHOULD WE WANT TO.

That is the path to all sorts of science fiction, dystopian society, Orwellian, socialist horrors.

And what we have now is NOT a horror???
We have a whole class of entitled assholes who are too "busy" or too good to serve and a society for many who worship stupidity.

[quade 4]

Don't kid yourself. The evidence is pretty clear that if, during the Vietnam war, a rich kid didn't want to serve in battle his family could easily leverage their power to make it so he never would see harm. The rich and powerful will ALWAYS have a way to game and avoid the same duties as the other 99% in a mandatory system.

By making the system voluntary, you're enabling a non-influential person the ability to avoid dying in a war not of his choosing.

It also ensures that at least some of the non-influential aren't institutionally brainwashed.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Arvoitus 1]

quade

***Either no one or everyone should be subject.

I waffle on this because no matter how the system is designed it will be massively unfair and if anyone ever wanted to bitch about socialism, this would be the program to facilitate it.

In my mind its easy. I only look at it from the economical perspective. I live in a country where all men must serve in conscription based military (if you refuse you get sent to prison) and you basically don't get paid for it beyond basic upkeep, food, clothing, etc. So those who don't serve, get to enter work life earlier making their lifetime earnings higher.

The solution, therefore, would be simple modified version of the system Switzerland has. Everybody gets a choice, serve time in the military or pay a defense tax of ~2-3% until you're retired.

Your rights end where my feelings begin.

[quade 4]

I'm only guessing because I have not fully researched it, but my guess is, like the engineering of most things, the system would not scale and considerably more changes would need to take place than the "simple" one you just outlined.

For instance, the percentage of population in the active Swiss military is 1.8% while in the US it's 4.3%. So, the US has more individuals in it by simple percentage of population. (Numbers according to Wikipedia, not perfect but close enough for ball park.)

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[theonlyski 8]

quade

As for instilling a "common set of values for all citizens," that's what public school is partly about. That's why they taught civics and history and require the Pledge of Allegiance.

I don't believe the Pledge of Allegiance is required anymore, and I know there have been at least a couple lawsuits that ended up saying so.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[quade 4]

theonlyski

***
As for instilling a "common set of values for all citizens," that's what public school is partly about. That's why they taught civics and history and require the Pledge of Allegiance.

I don't believe the Pledge of Allegiance is required anymore, and I know there have been at least a couple lawsuits that ended up saying so.

This comes up all the time on my Facebook page by gullible nitwits copying and pasting bogus info graphics. The Pledge is required in 45 states. You'd be surprised if you researched which ones it wasn't required in.

Go for it.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=pledge%20of%20alligience%20required%20in%20which%20states

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Amazon 7]

quade

******
As for instilling a "common set of values for all citizens," that's what public school is partly about. That's why they taught civics and history and require the Pledge of Allegiance.

I don't believe the Pledge of Allegiance is required anymore, and I know there have been at least a couple lawsuits that ended up saying so.

This comes up all the time on my Facebook page by gullible nitwits copying and pasting bogus info graphics. The Pledge is required in 45 states. You'd be surprised if you researched which ones it wasn't required in.

Go for it.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=pledge%20of%20alligience%20required%20in%20which%20states

Bunch of damn commies in them states if you ask me

[theonlyski 8]

http://www.aclufl.org/pdfs/Legal%20PDfs/Frazier.pdf

Since I don't really feel like getting into a long argument over this and I've got somewhere to be, I'll just look at FL law (since I live here now and it's not one of the 5 states you mentioned).

http://www.flsenate.gov/laws/statutes/2011/1003.44

Quote

1003.44 - Patriotic programs; rules.—
(1)Each district school board may adopt rules to require, in all of the schools of the district, programs of a patriotic nature to encourage greater respect for the government of the United States and its national anthem and flag, subject always to other existing pertinent laws of the United States or of the state. When the national anthem is played, students and all civilians shall stand at attention, men removing the headdress, except when such headdress is worn for religious purposes. The pledge of allegiance to the flag, “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all,” shall be rendered by students standing with the right hand over the heart. The pledge of allegiance to the flag shall be recited at the beginning of the day in each public elementary, middle, and high school in the state. Each student shall be informed by posting a notice in a conspicuous place that the student has the right not to participate in reciting the pledge. Upon written request by his or her parent, the student must be excused from reciting the pledge. When the pledge is given, civilians must show full respect to the flag by standing at attention, men removing the headdress, except when such headdress is worn for religious purposes, as provided by Pub. L. ch. 77-435, s. 7, approved June 22, 1942, 56 Stat. 377, as amended by Pub. L. ch. 77-806, 56 Stat. 1074, approved December 22, 1942.

(bolding mine)
Now, what part of that says it's mandatory? Seems like it's as easy as getting a note from your parent.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[quade 4]

It's mandatory that it's a part of the day for the school as a whole. It is optional for an individual student ONLY if the parents of the student decide they don't want their child to participate and requires a written request by the parent.

The Pledge itself though is still going to happen; it's mandatory via law.

BTW, even with this possible exception via parental consent, there's going to be horrible school-yard social pressure for the kid to do it anyway. Any child/parent that doesn't initially realize the consequences would quickly learn them and I'd admire any kid who truly understood and believed in continuing to not saying The Pledge. It would a near hellish nightmare for them in defending their First Amendment rights for whatever reason they might have.

My guess, is any child/parent who chooses to go down that path probably understands the Constitution far more than the kids simply parroting The Pledge.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[PLFKING 4]

Quote

It would serve this country quite well to instill a common set of values for all citizens.

<<< LOUDLY applauding >>>


Don

"When in doubt I whip it out,
I got me a rock-and-roll band.
It's a free-for-all."

[billvon 2,991]

> but you can't say we live in a free country if mandatory service exists.

It does now. We pay taxes; that's mandatory labor, just in a different form.

There's a lot to be said for mandatory civic service. In a direct sense it helps the US by providing some labor for free, which means you don't have to pay as much in taxes. However the larger benefit would be exposing people to different ways of life, new experiences and people they would otherwise never meet. To use some stereotypes sure to annoy someone:

-The spoiled rich kid has to learn to live with (and maybe even respect) the dirt poor city kids he has to work with

-The dirt poor city kid gets exposed to a government office where people work all day, take home a paycheck, raise a family, can afford a car and a home etc.

-The recent immigrant gets exposed to an all-English environment and improves his language skills

-The uber nerd gets some of the only exercise he will ever get

-The raging college feminist meets women who do not agree with her but are still "powerful women"

- The frat boy meets some nerds and gets to know them

Etc etc.

I saw this happen in the Peace Corps when an old girlfriend of mine did a stint. Sure, they dug wells and tried to introduce new crops, sanitation, basic medicine etc. But the bigger effect is that some of the most ambitious and involved young Americans out there learned a hell of a lot about a different culture and then came back to the US. And having people like that understand another culture more clearly helps both the US and the other culture.

[quade 4]

billvon

> but you can't say we live in a free country if mandatory service exists.

It does now. We pay taxes; that's mandatory labor, just in a different form.

Nonsense. It's a tax on income which has practically nothing to do with how much labor a person performs nor danger a job exposes a person to.

Now, if you're telling me as part of my national service I can choose to write poetry, then maybe we can talk.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[TriGirl 318]

This hasn't been moved to SC why?

See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

[akarunway 1]

TriGirl

This hasn't been moved to SC why?

I read it and thought I WAS in speakers corner. Couldn't be as I was banned for life. Maybe because the mods are commenting?

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.