Uncle Sam needs a few old men

[wmw999 2,449]

Hey--I tried. I did mention boobies.
Let's get it back on topic for Bonfire.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Bolas 5]

quade

It's mandatory that it's a part of the day for the school as a whole. It is optional for an individual student ONLY if the parents of the student decide they don't want their child to participate and requires a written request by the parent.

The Pledge itself though is still going to happen; it's mandatory via law.

BTW, even with this possible exception via parental consent, there's going to be horrible school-yard social pressure for the kid to do it anyway. Any child/parent that doesn't initially realize the consequences would quickly learn them and I'd admire any kid who truly understood and believed in continuing to not saying The Pledge. It would a near hellish nightmare for them in defending their First Amendment rights for whatever reason they might have.

My guess, is any child/parent who chooses to go down that path probably understands the Constitution far more than the kids simply parroting The Pledge.

Agree with social pressure, but could also be a reverse scenario, especially if the parental consent is not enforced and not saying it is the norm.

Quote

In 1954, the phrase “under God” was added to the Pledge of Allegiance by a Congressional act. President Eisenhower said that the phrase was “.. reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America’s heritage and future... ” Since then, the phrase has contributed to the controversy surrounding whether students should be required to recite the pledge in schools.

Thanks Ike.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Krip 2]

wmw999

Hey--I tried. I did mention boobies.
Let's get it back on topic for Bonfire.

Wendy P.

Me thinks mentioning boobies keeps the thread in bonfire

The draft in this country has been around since the civil war. But our attitude to boobies and the boobies themselves has changed since then.

Forty percent of next yrs fresh meat at west point will be women. A lot more career fields in the military are open to boobies. The draft needs to get with the newer times. Instead of doing a cut copy and paste from the past.

On a happy note I don't see the draft happening during my lifetime for anyone.

One Jump Wonder

[BillyVance 34]

Bolas

***It's mandatory that it's a part of the day for the school as a whole. It is optional for an individual student ONLY if the parents of the student decide they don't want their child to participate and requires a written request by the parent.

The Pledge itself though is still going to happen; it's mandatory via law.

BTW, even with this possible exception via parental consent, there's going to be horrible school-yard social pressure for the kid to do it anyway. Any child/parent that doesn't initially realize the consequences would quickly learn them and I'd admire any kid who truly understood and believed in continuing to not saying The Pledge. It would a near hellish nightmare for them in defending their First Amendment rights for whatever reason they might have.

My guess, is any child/parent who chooses to go down that path probably understands the Constitution far more than the kids simply parroting The Pledge.

Agree with social pressure, but could also be a reverse scenario, especially if the parental consent is not enforced and not saying it is the norm.

Quote

In 1954, the phrase “under God” was added to the Pledge of Allegiance by a Congressional act. President Eisenhower said that the phrase was “.. reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America’s heritage and future... ” Since then, the phrase has contributed to the controversy surrounding whether students should be required to recite the pledge in schools.

Thanks Ike.

IIRC, it was a way of separating ourselves from the atheistic Soviet Union communist regime during the Cold War.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[Andy9o8 2]

Quote

-The recent immigrant gets exposed to an all-English environment and improves his language skills

Or, if you prefer, learns Spanish using the Immersion Method.

[billvon 2,995]

> It's a tax on income which has practically nothing to do with how much labor a
>person performs nor danger a job exposes a person to.

Right. And a person's pay often has nothing to do with how much labor they perform or how much danger a job exposes them to. Both (taxes and service) go towards supporting the country.

>Now, if you're telling me as part of my national service I can choose to write
>poetry, then maybe we can talk.

You might end up writing poetry, but that wouldn't be up to you.

[kelpdiver 2]

Amazon

And what we have now is NOT a horror???
We have a whole class of entitled assholes who are too "busy" or too good to serve and a society for many who worship stupidity.

Not sure how increasing the number of potential soldiers (iow, reinstating the draft) is going to improve the situation. Right now our (by historical terms) limited size of deployable troops acts as a check on the number of places we can fight in.

As for non military purposes, I can't see enough uses for the sheer number of kids we're talking about. Either they're going to be infantry or they're mostly going to be wasting two years of their life. Fuck that.

[Amazon 7]

kelpdiver

***
And what we have now is NOT a horror???
We have a whole class of entitled assholes who are too "busy" or too good to serve and a society for many who worship stupidity.

Not sure how increasing the number of potential soldiers (iow, reinstating the draft) is going to improve the situation. Right now our (by historical terms) limited size of deployable troops acts as a check on the number of places we can fight in.

As for non military purposes, I can't see enough uses for the sheer number of kids we're talking about. Either they're going to be infantry or they're mostly going to be wasting two years of their life. Fuck that.

I have said before that not all would need to serve in the military. Think of all the other places that might benefit from some extra helping hands.

Hospitals, parks across the nation that have facilities tha are falling apart etc. as a start

Think of it as a Depression era CCC or an internal Peace Corp doing the work needed across wide swaths of America that are beginning to look like the third world because of neglect.

And think of an educated and motivated group of young people who are the future of this country. Give our youth some "skin in the game"

[Bolas 5]

BillyVance

IIRC, it was sold as a way of separating ourselves from the atheistic Soviet Union communist regime during the Cold War.

FIFY

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[kelpdiver 2]

Amazon

I have said before that not all would need to serve in the military. Think of all the other places that might benefit from some extra helping hands.

Hospitals, parks across the nation that have facilities tha are falling apart etc. as a start

Think of it as a Depression era CCC or an internal Peace Corp doing the work needed across wide swaths of America that are beginning to look like the third world because of neglect.

I think back to the "shovel ready" travesty we saw back in 2009-2010. Personally, I think a great form of stimulus is to do capital spending on infrastructure, but we saw that there was no in fact a lot of shovel ready projects to take on that money, and instead it did a lot of sustaining operations.

If we suddenly turned on the spigot of mandatory service for 18yos, there would not be enough valid projects to direct them to. The only way you could prepare for that is to start with a voluntary one and build the pipeline. You still will have a problem with shady projects, and still will see a problem where kids basically waste two years of their life regressing.

For STEM majors, that much time out is a huge disservice to them and ultimately our nation. The Peace and Conflicts Studies majors can afford to do a Peace Corp type mission for a decade; it won't impact them on their return. But a two year gap between first year calculus and second (typically multivariable and linear algebra) is death. Even a single year off isn't great, though many HS students are burned out after 4 years of the college application rat race, so 6months to a year out could have some positive aspects.

[ryoder 1,590]

Amazon

I have said before that not all would need to serve in the military. Think of all the other places that might benefit from some extra helping hands.

Hospitals, parks across the nation that have facilities tha are falling apart etc. as a start

Think of it as a Depression era CCC or an internal Peace Corp doing the work needed across wide swaths of America that are beginning to look like the third world because of neglect.

And think of an educated and motivated group of young people who are the future of this country. Give our youth some "skin in the game"

There was a precedent for that in WWII: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Public_Service

I had a relative who was in that. As well as the camps described in the link, he also served as an orderly in a mental institution, and as a crewman on a cattle boat taking livestock to Italy.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Amazon 7]

kelpdiver

***
I have said before that not all would need to serve in the military. Think of all the other places that might benefit from some extra helping hands.

Hospitals, parks across the nation that have facilities tha are falling apart etc. as a start

Think of it as a Depression era CCC or an internal Peace Corp doing the work needed across wide swaths of America that are beginning to look like the third world because of neglect.

I think back to the "shovel ready" travesty we saw back in 2009-2010. Personally, I think a great form of stimulus is to do capital spending on infrastructure, but we saw that there was no in fact a lot of shovel ready projects to take on that money, and instead it did a lot of sustaining operations.

If we suddenly turned on the spigot of mandatory service for 18yos, there would not be enough valid projects to direct them to. The only way you could prepare for that is to start with a voluntary one and build the pipeline. You still will have a problem with shady projects, and still will see a problem where kids basically waste two years of their life regressing.

For STEM majors, that much time out is a huge disservice to them and ultimately our nation. The Peace and Conflicts Studies majors can afford to do a Peace Corp type mission for a decade; it won't impact them on their return. But a two year gap between first year calculus and second (typically multivariable and linear algebra) is death. Even a single year off isn't great, though many HS students are burned out after 4 years of the college application rat race, so 6months to a year out could have some positive aspects.

And how do you quantify the intangibles like leaving home, being subjected to others who come from differing backgrounds, being responsible for something---anything for the first time in most of their lives. Would a standard "boot camp" work out as a start??

There are currently about 4 million young Americans a year turning 18. How many of those will actually succeed( how do you even define that metric) in life.

Edited to add.
The whole process needs to start long before the 18th birthday while in High School. You could get a pretty good idea who might be eligible for STEM long before graduation and if the qualified you would still do your "BASIC Training" within the first few months. Think of that first year as your introduction to adulthood. The best and the brightest acedemically should be treated as other countries do and not burden them with a lifetime of debt for persuing an education that will provide far more benefit to our country. Some nations of the world have already learned that lesson very very well.

[kelpdiver 2]

Amazon

And how do you quantify the intangibles like leaving home, being subjected to others who come from differing backgrounds, being responsible for something---anything for the first time in most of their lives. Would a standard "boot camp" work out as a start??

People get that in college. Or the first time they leave home. Now for the non military option, are you proposing to house these kids, or are they staying at home?

Now as soon as we start defining exceptions (like STEM), we're back to something that is virtually identical to the draft with its social inequities. Hence, has to stay in the voluntary realm.

[billvon 2,995]

>People get that in college.

Definitely, and for people who can afford college (and have the chops to get in) that's a great way to get it.

>Now for the non military option, are you proposing to house these kids, or are
>they staying at home?

Would depend on the assignment. I would imagine in most cases it would be nearby.

[quade 4]

Bolas

Quote

In 1954, the phrase “under God” was added to the Pledge of Allegiance by a Congressional act. President Eisenhower said that the phrase was “.. reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America’s heritage and future... ” Since then, the phrase has contributed to the controversy surrounding whether students should be required to recite the pledge in schools.

Thanks Ike.

Actually, you have the Knights of Columbus to thank for that. They're the ones who lobbied Congress for it.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[kelpdiver 2]

billvon

>People get that in college.

Definitely, and for people who can afford college (and have the chops to get in) that's a great way to get it.

the implication would be that those not going to college should need to go this other way. Not your intent, I doubt.

Quote

>Now for the non military option, are you proposing to house these kids, or are
>they staying at home?

Would depend on the assignment. I would imagine in most cases it would be nearby.

This then zeros out the benefits Amazon spoke of - getting out on one's own and becoming an adult. Though supplied housing (dorm) wouldn't really do it either.

[TriGirl 319]

kelpdiver

For STEM majors, that much time out is a huge disservice to them and ultimately our nation. The Peace and Conflicts Studies majors can afford to do a Peace Corp type mission for a decade; it won't impact them on their return. But a two year gap between first year calculus and second (typically multivariable and linear algebra) is death. Even a single year off isn't great, though many HS students are burned out after 4 years of the college application rat race, so 6months to a year out could have some positive aspects.

I disagree. After my first 3 semesters, I took 2.5 yrs off to do my military training and some follow-on service. Went right back to my Medical Physics program just fine (got through multivariable calc before my hiatus, picked up with Diff Eq, organic chem and E&M once I came back). The only problem I had was with statistics, though that had nothing to do with the time off!

See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

[wmw999 2,449]

Just as most cultures have accustomed themselves to having summer vacations, so can they get used to a year of service. My model would include everyone who is not actively destructive. Slow learners and physically handicapped should definitely be included. Kids who are the sole support or caretakers of disabled family members would need to be considered.

Either immediately after high school, or at the end of the school year where you turn 18.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[TriGirl 319]

wmw999

Just as most cultures have accustomed themselves to having summer vacations, so can they get used to a year of service. My model would include everyone who is not actively destructive. Slow learners and physically handicapped should definitely be included. Kids who are the sole support or caretakers of disabled family members would need to be considered.

Either immediately after high school, or at the end of the school year where you turn 18.

Wendy P.

Not to mention, how many people have we all heard saying they would "take a year off" after HS?

See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

[billvon 2,995]

>the implication would be that those not going to college should need to go
>this other way. Not your intent, I doubt.

No, the intent would be to get everyone that kind of experience, college or not.

>This then zeros out the benefits Amazon spoke of - getting out on one's own
>and becoming an adult.

Perhaps, but to me, the big benefit is not that you live in a different place (although that will be a good experience for a lot of people.)

[kelpdiver 2]

TriGirl

I disagree. After my first 3 semesters, I took 2.5 yrs off to do my military training and some follow-on service. Went right back to my Medical Physics program just fine (got through multivariable calc before my hiatus, picked up with Diff Eq, organic chem and E&M once I came back). The only problem I had was with statistics, though that had nothing to do with the time off!

When I left, I never looked back. And I suspect that is closer to the norm. Certainly not saying it's impossible, or even terribly difficult, but every time I jump back into a technology I haven't used in years, it's a slower ramp up, so I find it less than ideal.