Drug tests for welfare recipients

[winsor 236]

ryoder

If there is going to be drug testing, then it needs to include:

1. The drug with the most debilitating mental and physical effects (ethanol).

2. The drug that causes the most death and disease (tobacco).

Otherwise, "drug testing" is just a joke.

I'm cool with being routinely tested for employment, insurance and so forth, but I don't smoke, drink or take anything that warns against driving or using machinery (undergoing surgery was an exception), so I have no dog in this fight one way or another.

Anyhow, it always tore me up that someone with a martini in one hand and a Marlboro in the other saw fit to pontificate on the evils of proscribed drugs (that was in the late '60s, but what the hell).

Right.


BSBD,

Winsor

[Amazon 7]

normiss

How quickly some will want to remove other's rights.

I do not want to remove anyone's rights.. BUT.... perhaps if those making and enforcing the laws were actually SUBJECT to the same laws...... they would act more appropriately before removing

OUR.....


WE THE PEOPLE'S


RIGHTS

[Anvilbrother 0]

Normiss are drugs illegal?
We are not asking for citizens to submit to a lie detector and dna test if they were in the are of a killing.

We are asking citizens who are participating in a COSTLY VOLUNTARY program that is known to have abusers to vet themselves before or during the process at random.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[normiss 855]

Voluntary?
OK.
No.
Thanks anyway.

You have no right to a warrantless search of my body simply to receive government benefits.

[Anvilbrother 0]

You keep saying WARRANT LESS WARRANT LESS, but if you sign the dotted line and agree to the benefits as long as you get random drug tested they dont need a warrant you either piss or lose the benefits.

I feel like your just a old stoner that wants your handout but doesn't want to get caught.

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[Remster 30]

Anvilbrother

You keep saying WARRANT LESS WARRANT LESS, but if you sign the dotted line and agree to the benefits as long as you get random drug tested they dont need a warrant you either piss or lose the benefits.

I feel like your just a old stoner that wants your handout but doesn't want to get caught.

I guess some amendments are more sacred than others. I'm sure there's at least 4 or 5 that should trimmed out...

Remster

[normiss 855]

There is no waiver of constitutional rights to receive government benefits.
Want me to piss test for you right now?
I'm game.
Unless you stop me and demand it without a warrant.
Illegal search of my person is a protected right that I value.
Don't touch me. Talk to my attorney.

[ryoder 1,590]

Anvilbrother

You keep saying WARRANT LESS WARRANT LESS, but if you sign the dotted line and agree to the benefits as long as you get random drug tested they dont need a warrant you either piss or lose the benefits.

I feel like your just a old stoner that wants your handout but doesn't want to get caught.

Fourth Amendment:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects,[a] against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized

So where is the probable cause when I am compelled to take a drug test, just because I applied for benefits?

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Anvilbrother 0]

No one is FORCING you to get benifits is what im saying its VOLUNTARY. No one forced me to go get my Commercial drivers license, but the GOVERNMENT required that I take a drug test!

ITS NOT UNREASONABLE SEARCH OF YOUR PERSONS IF YOUR VOLUNTARILY APPLYING FOR BENEFITS, YOU ARE AGREEING TO BE SEARCHED OR YOU DON'T GET BENEFITS.

What is so hard to understand about that. Im not for random checks on the side of the street for any private citizen. Im saying if you want handouts, money, a federal job, a pilots job, military job, you gotta fucking piss, if not dont do those things.

Im a firefighter, im required to be subject to random drug and alcohol tests at any time, even if I am at home on sick leave they can come and take me to get tested. If I dont want that I have to quit.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[ryoder 1,590]

Anvilbrother

No one is FORCING you to get benifits is what im saying its VOLUNTARY. No one forced me to go get my Commercial drivers license, but the GOVERNMENT required that I take a drug test!

ITS NOT UNREASONABLE SEARCH OF YOUR PERSONS IF YOUR VOLUNTARILY APPLYING FOR BENEFITS, YOU ARE AGREEING TO BE SEARCHED OR YOU DON'T GET BENEFITS.

What is so hard to understand about that. Im not for random checks on the side of the street for any private citizen. Im saying if you want handouts, money, a federal job, a pilots job, military job, you gotta fucking piss, if not dont do those things.

Im a firefighter, im required to be subject to random drug and alcohol tests at any time, even if I am at home on sick leave they can come and take me to get tested. If I dont want that I have to quit.

So we are all guilty until we prove ourselves innocent;
Got it.
And once again, until the drug testing includes ethanol and tobacco, it is just a joke.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[normiss 855]

Ah, so you don't understand constitutional rights.
Here's how the courts have seen it so far here in FL.
Violation of the 4th
BOTH appeals have failed.

[rehmwa 2]

ryoder

***No one is FORCING you to get benifits is what im saying its VOLUNTARY. No one forced me to go get my Commercial drivers license, but the GOVERNMENT required that I take a drug test!

ITS NOT UNREASONABLE SEARCH OF YOUR PERSONS IF YOUR VOLUNTARILY APPLYING FOR BENEFITS, YOU ARE AGREEING TO BE SEARCHED OR YOU DON'T GET BENEFITS.

What is so hard to understand about that. Im not for random checks on the side of the street for any private citizen. Im saying if you want handouts, money, a federal job, a pilots job, military job, you gotta fucking piss, if not dont do those things.

Im a firefighter, im required to be subject to random drug and alcohol tests at any time, even if I am at home on sick leave they can come and take me to get tested. If I dont want that I have to quit.

So we are all guilty until we prove ourselves innocent;
Got it.

I just want to make sure then - you think that the current practice in the military to take drug testing is unconstitutional?

Or are you guys just pretending to be obtuse to mess with Anvil (not that I don't appreciate it for the entertainment value, but that's more Billvon's style than you or Normiss)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[normiss 855]

That's not accurate at all.
Compare it to taking a tinkle test for a job.
As opposed to benefits.

[Anvilbrother 0]

Federal laws do allow drug testing, just because you linked a court in FL does not mean shit

Quote

The federal rules permit drug testing as part of the Temporary Assistance for Needy Families block grant

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[rehmwa 2]

normiss

That's not accurate at all.
Compare it to taking a tinkle test for a job.
As opposed to benefits.

I get benefits from my job - so do military personnel
- like an income
- health benefits
- day care is an option
- legal benefits
- some even give me a work phone
- military even helps with housing
- disability

I guess those aren't like any of our government entitlement benefits at all are they?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[normiss 855]

I recall being told I had basically signed and waived my constitutional rights away when I was sworn in.

Getting bennies from the government direct seems different.
Whether you respect the appellate courts in the south east or not.

[rehmwa 2]

normiss

Getting bennies from the government direct seems different.

so - if you have to work for it, it's ok to have your rights removed
----but if it's free - then it's a tragedy


I think (on this issue) that we are operating under very different ground rules

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Anvilbrother 0]

Quote

so - if you have to work for it, it's ok to have your rights removed
----but if it's free - then it's a tragedy


I think (on this issue) that we are operating under very different ground rules

+1

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[normiss 855]

One is voluntary, the other is by force of government.
Maybe that's the distinction.

I didn't create constitutional rules, I just try to make sense of them.
I have yet to allow an unlawful search.
Only to court once to defend it. Not arrested, notice to appear was given as soon as the two cops knew they were in the wrong.
One was fired, the rookie was sent back to school.

[kallend 2,106]

weekender

******I agree that your title of "Drug tests for welfare recipients" and the topic of it being a waste of money to drug test applicants based off a self questionnaire was a ploy by you and the writer to mislead readers to believe that it is a waste of money and should never be done.

Neither I, nor the writer of the article, made the rules in Tennessee. The data show quite clearly that the rules simply waste time, money and energy.

Same is true in Florida:

www.tampabay.com/news/courts/florida-didnt-save-money-by-drug-testing-welfare-recipients-data-shows/1225721

if you are arguing against drug testing for welfare, the Florida study is a much better case. you should have lead with that. the Tenn one is just silly and doesn't make a compelling argument either way. well, except that lawmakers in Tenn seem to be incompetent. the article pretty much proves that.



Easy, the TN situation is current. The FL is old hat.

I believe the cost/benefit ratio has been unfavorable wherever it has been examined.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Anvilbrother 0]

OMG im done talking to you, I see where others have called you out for your paranoia and craziness now.

Quote

One is voluntary, the other is by force of government.

You getting your free handout is voluntary
Me getting a government job is voluntary

Both require drug test

NONE OF THEM ARE BY FORCE!!! IF YOU DONT WANT THE JOB OR THE BENIFITS DONT GET THEM IF YOU DO TAKE YOUR PISS TEST!!

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[rehmwa 2]

chill out - you guys are talking past each other - like I said, different assumptions going into the discussion

Normiss is one of the most reasonable posters on here

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

normiss

the other is by force of government.

I disagree - making a drug test a pre-req for getting and continuing to get social program benefits is not force


force is them taking them to jail and testing them, or putting them in jail if they refuse - worse case here is they are just denied benefits

social benefits are not rights protected under the constitution, they are bribes for voting and 'help' plans - as such they can have any strings attached that congress wishes to arbitrarily invoke.

another analogy - highway or education funding comes with strings attached - else it's denied - is that involuntary force by the government? Heck no - right or wrong, it's the standard operating procedure

(the fact that this testing is not feasible at this time is my big sticking point)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,106]

" No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

It doesn't say anything about "except people with drugs in their urine".

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[weekender 0]

Anvilbrother

OMG im done talking to you, I see where others have called you out for your paranoia and craziness now.

Quote

One is voluntary, the other is by force of government.

You getting your free handout is voluntary
Me getting a government job is voluntary

Both require drug test

NONE OF THEM ARE BY FORCE!!! IF YOU DONT WANT THE JOB OR THE BENIFITS DONT GET THEM IF YOU DO TAKE YOUR PISS TEST!!

i agree with you on this. its really not a biggie and i think that some here dont like it so are claiming its a huge constitutional violations. as if that is cut and dry. we all know is not and rulings are decided by judges appointed by like minded politicians.

i think its a bad idea though. then what? if they are on public assistance i doubt they can afford or have insurance for treatment. then we have to pay to treat them? or do we let them and their kids go hungry. id rather we had a few people be on the dole and fat getting high than the alternative. which is we pay for their treatment or even worse. they truly go hungry as do their innocent children.

so i dont see anything wrong with it but dont think its a good idea because it opens up a giant can of worms of what to do next. its cheaper to buy them a dime bag once in a while.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante