skycop 0 #76 September 7, 2014 I'd have to agree, an MRAP for the cost of shipping vs. $230.000 for a Bearcat. Which is a better value for local taxpayers? An MRAP is better suited during hurricane rescues/response as well. The MRAP discussion is an interesting one, for LE purposes an MRAP is nothing more than a large truck with an armored capsule, a moving ballistic shield. An agency in our area used theirs for a barricaded guy with a scoped rifle, it's use prevented casualties and took a distance advantage away from bad guy. He ended up shooting out the spotlight, but that's all he could damage. You seldom see those stories in the media. They have also turned out to be decent flash flooding/swift water rescue vehicles, due to their size and weight The same can be said for HMMWV's, ours is used for bad weather, clearing debris, and special events. We used it last winter during a snow storm two days after we got it. We are not worried about damaging it, we do the minimum maintenance. I've been able to obtain a bench stock of parts along with all the maintenance manuals. If we have a major component failure we turn it back in. We have a full sized four wheel drive vehicle, along with response equipment (surplus also) for literally less than a thousand bucks. This is a capability we did not previously have. For anyone who makes a living doing preparedness, Orlando Florida would be the poster child for an armored vehicle. Like it or not attractions in the area are primary targets for attacks. It sounds like they are replacing an existing one for whatever reason. "Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BartsDaddy 7 #77 September 7, 2014 I have hesitated to enter this disscusion. My input doesn't pertain to the militarazation but the us vs them. I can come up with a few but the one that shows it best is. Me and my friend at 21 or 22 years old. Back in 1984 I believe. We were doing something we were completely in the wrong doing. But I was a bored country boy in the city no squrels to shot so we take a pellet gun and went cat hunting. Yes I know it was wrong this was long ago I would not do it now. With that said back to the story. After about a half hour of going through the housing tract. We wound up back next to my moms house where I lived at the time, just as a police cruiser passed us the other way. We were just coming up to the curb parking and my friend Gary driving said they are flipping around. So once he stopped I exited the vehicle while throwing my open container under his car hoping it would not be seen. Well they never said anything of the beer. But 2 seconds after I got out of that car a policeman with a twelve gauge was telling me to get down. After I did he proceeded to come up and aim at the back of of my head for about 15 minutes. While the other policeman was talking to and covering Gary with a 1911. About 5 minutes into it Gary was pronged out on the otherwise of the vehicle. This went on for awhile while they were saying they had reports of a shooter shooting at kids. Even though two minutes into the stop they knew it was a pellet gun. Up to this point I don't like what is happening but it is my fault. At this point Gary ask the cop if he knows Sergeant Joe Smith. Who happened to be 5 years retired from the same city. Gary then tells.him he is Joe Smiths son. Those two officers attitude changed imediatly. The one holstered his 1911 and helped Gary up. The other one even played his shotgun on the ground and helped me up and brushed the grass of the front of me. That has never happened before. They gave a lecture confiscated the pellet gun and said have a nice night. That is basicly where my involvement ends but 20 minutes later when we were standing in front of my house Gary's dad showed up walked across the grassknocked garyGary on his ass said get in the truck. Turned to me and my mom. Said sorry and left. It is amazing as to what one name drop will do to keep you from going to jail. When that name is a cop. Handguns are only used to fight your way to a good rifle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Boomerdog 0 #78 September 7, 2014 Quotemore local wasteful spending For what? If you're asking me, I don't have an answer. With the exception of body armor to protect, I have very serious concerns about surplus military equipment, particularly weapons and big a$$ed armored vehicles rolling down Main Street with cops in them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Boomerdog 0 #79 September 7, 2014 QuoteThanks for the Merrill McPeak lecture, next time save it for someone who didn't live through the TQM era.......... And with that, you've just told me everything! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #80 September 8, 2014 Boomerdog Quote Thanks for the Merrill McPeak lecture, next time save it for someone who didn't live through the TQM era.......... And with that, you've just told me everything! I just think somebody counted way too many rivets.... while supposedly guarding them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #81 September 8, 2014 I'm surprised that this thread has not (from what I've seen) touched much on the incentivization of hiring combat vets as police, and possible implications of that.cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycop 0 #82 September 8, 2014 I love your assumptions, waayyyy off base............ I hadn't posted here in years, but you're still the same. If you have anything substantive to bring to the discussion please, feel free. As of yet, nope, nada, zip.......... "Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycop 0 #83 September 8, 2014 QuoteAnd with that, you've just told me everything! Oh, I forgot the "Aircrew Nametag" as well. QuoteIf you're asking me, I don't have an answer. With the exception of body armor to protect, I have very serious concerns about surplus military equipment, particularly weapons and big a$$ed armored vehicles rolling down Main Street with cops in them. Unless of course it's going to rescue your kid from a school shooting, your wife from an active shooter, or worse. "Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Boomerdog 0 #84 September 8, 2014 Yea but when seconds count, the cops are minutes away. Besides the Supreme Court clearly said it was not your job to protect me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 284 #85 September 8, 2014 You obviously don't think the militarization of the police is a problem and you are entitled to your opinion. However, the general public disagrees with you. You are losing the hearts and minds of those you are supposed to protect and that IS a problem. Continuing to say "it's not a problem, you are all mistaken" is just putting your head in the sand. If the only people saying that its not a problem is the cops, then you are wrong.Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycop 0 #86 September 8, 2014 QuoteYea but when seconds count, the cops are minutes away. Most cops will tell you the same thing. Unless you take appropriate measures to help yourself (in any given number of situations), all we are going to do is be able to clean up the mess and investigate. The vast majority of LEO's favor concealed carry, also look up the ALICE program for active shooter response. "Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycop 0 #87 September 8, 2014 QuoteYou obviously don't think the militarization of the police is a problem and you are entitled to your opinion. However, the general public disagrees with you. You are losing the hearts and minds of those you are supposed to protect and that IS a problem. Continuing to say "it's not a problem, you are all mistaken" is just putting your head in the sand. If the only people saying that its not a problem is the cops, then you are wrong. I think the only ones we are losing is a small, but very vocal group we never really "had" in the first place. There are ways people can find out what's going on in their communities, I suggested ways to be active and make an informed decision. I do think the militarization is a problem at the federal level, read the article I linked in the first post. At the local level, mission creep is an absolute concern. It's comes down to leadership and what the local population wants. The 1033 program is very beneficial to local agencies, it saves money and increases capabilities in many areas at minimal cost. 95% of the items acquired are not weapons or tactical vehicles. LE has been using surplus equipment since the 50's. "Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 800 #88 September 8, 2014 "Investigate". That's an interesting word when it comes to policing. Generally, unless it's a fairly major case, all the "investigation" consists of is the taking of data points and entering them into a database. Somewhere down the road if some data points get hit based a new individual or data into the system a case gets addressed again, otherwise, you simply documented the crime. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #89 September 8, 2014 QuoteIf you ask many young people if they have ever been in a fight, you'd be surprised how many say no. It sounds like a small thing, but it's been identified as a potential trend in training. Why would anyone fight if the other guy will just "stand his ground" and kill you with a gun? Everybody should have guns to defend themselves and more people should have fistfights. Those two statements simply don't work together. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #90 September 8, 2014 Your speaking for others when you say the general public does not support the police. Everyone I have talked to personally, and a few people here support it. Also remember the squeaky wheel gets the airtime in tv and Internet media to speak against it. The millions that support it keep on going about their business. Just like reviews in amazon. How many people bought the item and loved it and just never had the need to review it, but you know just about everyone that did not like the item will be giving it a poor review. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 220 #91 September 8, 2014 cvfd1399Your speaking for others when you say the general public does not support the police. Everyone I have talked to personally, and a few people here support it. Also remember the squeaky wheel gets the airtime in tv and Internet media to speak against it. The millions that support it keep on going about their business. Just like reviews in amazon. How many people bought the item and loved it and just never had the need to review it, but you know just about everyone that did not like the item will be giving it a poor review. It depends on the neighborhood where you ask the questions. I'm pretty sure that if you go to Overtown, in Miami, or if you go to China Town, you will get a vastly different response than if you take the poll in The Hamptons.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #92 September 8, 2014 >I think the only ones we are losing is a small, but very vocal group we never >really "had" in the first place. ========== 58 Percent Say Police Departments Using Drones, Military Weapons Goes Too Far, 60 Percent of Tea Partiers Agree Emily Ekins Dec. 17, 2013 2:25 pm In an era of “shoot first, ask questions later, ” 56 percent of Americans say local police departments using drones, military weapons, and armored vehicles goes too far and is not necessary for law enforcement purposes, according to the latest Reason-Rupe poll. Thirty-nine percent believe these weapons are necessary for law enforcement purposes. http://reason.com/poll/2013/12/17/56-percent-say-police-departments-usin2 =========== Public trust in police low, criticism of militarization rises: poll By Cheryl K. Chumley - The Washington Times - Tuesday, August 26, 2014 Police aren’t faring so well when it comes to inspiring trust from the community, a poll from USA Today/Pew Research Center found. About 65 percent of respondents said police did “only a fair” or poor job in holding fellow officers accountable for misconduct, while 30 percent said they did an excellent or good job in that regard. The findings were similar when the questions dealt with how police treated different racial groups and if police usually applied the right amount of force. Mostly, though, critics say police are becoming far too militarized. More than four of 10 respondents said they weren’t confident police could use military-grade equipment and weapons appropriately, USA Today reported. Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/26/public-trust-police-low-poll-finds/#ixzz3CkIupGyJ =============== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #93 September 8, 2014 Yes, it was unfair for him to say the general public does not support the uparmoring of police. There is no data to support it either way, just what's in the media which is biased for ratings, and whoever makes the most noise gets airtime. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #94 September 8, 2014 QuoteI think the only ones we are losing is a small, but very vocal group we never really "had" in the first place. And I think you're way under-estimating just how rapidly that sampling is going mainstream, thanks in large part to Ferguson. "Militarization of police" has entered the popular lexicon, heightened sensitivity of that issue will soon be the norm, and that genie's not going back into the bottle. As far as "those you never really had in the first place", my experience from 3 decades in the system is that that cohort has historically been comprised of those living in poor, mostly black and Hispanic neighborhoods, where the police both act like and are perceived as an army of occupation. Thanks to the mainstreaming of the issue I refer to above, that compartmentalization you refer to is becoming a thing of the past. By the way, your use of the term "a small, but very vocal group we never really "had" in the first place" reeks of "us vs. them". Maybe that's not how you intended it, but that's how it comes across. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #95 September 8, 2014 Sorry, but I see this as three separate debates: arming police, armouring police and droning police. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anvilbrother 0 #96 September 8, 2014 Yea well your in canada so you don't count :p Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 220 #97 September 8, 2014 riggerrobSorry, but I see this as three separate debates: arming police, armouring police and droning police. I don't think RoboCop is real.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #98 September 8, 2014 We are seeing a diversification in fighting skills depending upon which neighbourhood you grew up in. When kids are raised in poor or working class neighbourhoods they learn early how defend themselves with fists because they know that parents and teachers and police will not lift a finger to defend them. OTOH kids from " nice" neighbourhoods are discouraged from fist- fighting. Since kids from "nice" neighbourhoods are more likely to get hired as cops (e.g. no criminal background of petty thefts) some day they might patrol a beat in a poor neighbourhood where disputes are normally settled with fists. If the "nice" cop lacks fist- fighting skills, he/she will be too quick to defend him/herself with a Taser or gun. Solution: recruit police from a wide demographic and teach them a wide variety if take-down skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #99 September 8, 2014 QuoteIf the "nice" cop lacks fist- fighting skills, he/she will be too quick to defend him/herself with a Taser or gun. It might also be said that a person who spent his formative years in an environment where violence is the first level of dispute settlement might be too quick to employ the use of physical force, or too high a level of physical force. That aside, serious question: Are students/recruits who grew up fist-fighting, but have had no formal, professional martial arts instruction, more "trainable" by professional martial arts instructors? Shouldn't a good instructor be able to train any student from scratch? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #100 September 8, 2014 ...... serious question: Are students/recruits who grew up fist-fighting, but have had no formal, professional martial arts instruction, more "trainable" by professional martial arts instructors? Shouldn't a good instructor be able to train any student from scratch? ....................................................................................... Professional instructors can train most students ..... The best instructors are willing to fail a few students to maintain the credibility of the program/academy/police force. Most police recruits can be taught new martial arts skills ..... However, there is a lengthy screening process that starts with applications, aptitude tests, etc. and police academy instructors have to be willing to fail 10 or 20 percent of every class during the first week. Academy instructors have to fail the most violent 10 percent of recruits, because the martial arts training will not "stick" and they will revert to bashing heads after a few months or years on duty. As for the most timid 10 percent of recruits ... they deserve to fail early or rapidly get promoted to desk jobs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
